My guest today is JC Scott, artist and Founder/Owner of JC Scott eco Design Associates Inc. We’ll be talking about how he designs healthy home interiors for his clients, including clients with Multiple Chemical Sensitivities. JC has been creating memorable hospitality, commercial and residential environments for over 30 years from his live/work studio in Fan Tan Alley, Victoria, British Columbia, Canada. His award winning and cutting edge designs range from restaurants to resorts, from homes to offices and cafes to cafeterias with design project locations throughout Vancouver Island and from the Baja to the Bahamas. Today, JC is focussed on local design solutions and sustainable healthy materials with what he coined in recognition of the local food movement as “100 Mile Design.” Eco conscious, WestCoast style and detail are evident in all JC’s design work. Jc has focussed on indoor air quality, toxin free building and finishing materials and energy conscious passive and natural ventilation systems. JC works for clients who care about their health, their community and how sustainable design can show people new ways to live. www.jcscott.com
TOXIC FREE TALK RADIO
Design for a Healthy Home
Host: Debra Lynn Dadd
Guest: JC Scott
Date of Broadcast: June 02, 2015
DEBRA: Hi, I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and this is Toxic Free Talk Radio, where we talk about how to thrive in a toxic world and live toxic free. It’s Tuesday, June 2nd, 2015. It’s only 72° here in Clearwater, Florida. I have to say this because usually, it’s about 85° for about six months of the year. But we’ve got this lovely rain and cool air, and it’s so nice. It’s so unlike Florida right now. But I’m enjoying it a lot.
Today, we’re going to be talking about design, how to design for a healthy home. And I wonder if my – I just heard a sound and I thought we just got disconnected, but we didn’t.
Today, we’re going to be talking about how to design for a healthy home. My guest is JC Scott. He’s an artist and the founder and owner of JC Scott Eco Design Associates. He’s talking to us from Victoria in British Columbia, Canada.
Hi, JC. Hello?
JC SCOTT: Hello.
DEBRA: Hello! Are we connected?
JC SCOTT: I hope so.
DEBRA: Good. How are you?
JC SCOTT: Hi, Debra. I’m really well, thanks.
DEBRA: Good. What’s the weather like up there?
JC SCOTT: Just like you, cool and rainy today.
DEBRA: Cool and rainy, yes. I guess that’s the way it is all over the country.
JC SCOTT: Well, we’re coast to coast.
DEBRA: Yes, we are. I’m on one side of the coast and you’re on the other. So what got you interested in design and then how did you get interested in doing it in an eco and healthy way?
JC SCOTT: Well, I’ve always been interested in design. I was an artist as a child. I studied architectural history at University. And I apprenticed with an architect. And when I graduated, I worked as a mural painter for a while and then that led me into designing nightclubs and pubs and eventually, homes. That’s how I got into my – the design part of my career.
And the healthy part really is from my own lifestyle, eating health food and taking vitamins and caring about the environment. And also, when you study architectural history, you realize that for thousands of years, people built with the help of the inhabitants and sustainable methods of forestry as a norm. It’s only in the last century that we went off the rails.
DEBRA: Well, tell us a little bit about some of the historical things before we get into present time. What are some historical examples on how people did that?
JC SCOTT: Well, if we were to go back a hundred years or more, except for lead in pipes, there were no toxins in construction materials. If you just take stone or brick or concrete or untreated wood, the only quasi-normal toxin that was in any material up until the 20th century when we started doing then plastics and lots of other – as you know better than I, toxins in our materials. There were virtually no toxins in any home or structure.
DEBRA: Well, I think that is actually true from my own observation because when I travel around and even look for homes for me to live in myself, I’m always looking for older buildings for that very reason. And especially things like wood and stone. Before we really were in this industrial age where everything is getting made artificially, people just used what was around them. Sometimes I think about how nowadays we hire people to build our houses, I don’t even know when we started to do that because prior, most of history, people built their own houses. They chopped the wood.
I was just watching something on the History Channel. I think it was the other night where they were talking about the history of how things were done in the past as opposed to how we do things today in our homes, and about how people would just go out into the forest, chop these trees, they’d have to mill the lumbar, and they would do all this themselves because there were no stores. You couldn’t just go down to Home Depot. You couldn’t hire a contractor. Everybody needed to know how to do everything.
JC SCOTT: That’s right. And when they were taking things from the field and the forest to build their homes, obviously, there were no toxic carcinogens, there were no plastics, there were no biocides. Things that we’ve unfortunately started to bring into our homes and, in fact, in my jurisdictions, a lot of toxins are actually legislated. You can’t actually build a home without toxins unless you go to some great length. And that is really frustrating and challenging to someone like me who is making a commitment to myself, to the planet, and to my clients that we’re going to do a safe and healthy thing, when I’m having to fight with building inspectors to keep toxins out of houses.
DEBRA: I know. Give me an example of that.
JC SCOTT: One of the most common that’s threatening North America is the pervasive use of plastics, what are called vapor barriers, in wood frame construction. Or in fact, even in masonry construction, we’re almost always obliged to have what’s called a vapor barrier. And virtually, all the vapor barriers are made with forms of plastics with different degrees of toxicity.
There is a method that we’re now slowly getting approved in Canada of just using a barrier-free envelope but it’s really difficult to get the trades to accept it. But we are doing it. But that’s the most common, it’s the plastic vapor barrier.
DEBRA: I get frustrated. I’ve done a fair amount of remodeling myself. And I get frustrated when the building codes are written in a way that says you have to build in this certain way. And you have to use these certain materials. And if you don’t, you can’t pass the code. But they aren’t even considering that there might be another way to do it. But I think that that’s going to change because so many more people are starting to do these things and they’re starting to move to places where they can’t do it because there isn’t a building code. And I think it’s all starting to change. I see much more toxic-free materials available now than ever before. But it’s just a matter of the codes and everything catching up.
JC SCOTT: You’re absolutely right. The leading edge of the Environmental Construction Movement has been the people who have gone off grid in various ways. And they’re doing things in jurisdictions which have less regulation. And also, there’s a huge difference in the supply chain. When I began doing environmental buildings in the 1980s, I started the company called Green Builds Environmental at that time. We had to get most of our stuff from Europe. Germany and Switzerland have been ahead of us on this for a long, long time. And we used to have to import a lot of things from there.
Then some things started to come out of Vermont. But now, I can buy virtually a whole home’s worth of toxic-free building materials right here in the Cascadia region, here on Southern Vancouver Island.
DEBRA: Yes, it’s getting much easier. You can even go to places like Home Depot and Lowe’s and things and you can find low VOC paints and things like that. So it’s getting easier. It really is getting easier.
So we’re going to go to break in about one minute, so I don’t want to ask you a big question. I’m trying to ask you a short question.
JC SCOTT: Well, I’ll give you a short answer.
DEBRA: Give me a short answer, yes.
JC SCOTT: Yes, things are changing. Even building codes are changing because of publish pressure. There are so many people with chemical sensitivity, et cetera, who refuse to live in toxic environments that the government is having to catch up.
DEBRA: I agree with that. And I think that in every part of every kinds of products in every subject that it’s the consumers saying, “We don’t want those toxic things and we support having toxic-free products that really makes the change. And I have seen that change too over the past years. It used to be that we couldn’t do anything and now, there are all these products available. They are available all over the place.
So I’m just looking at the clock here because I want to ask you a question. My computer’s going crazy. Okay. So you’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and my guest today is JC Scott. He is an eco designer. And we’ll be right back to talk with him more about what he does.
DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and my guest today is JC Scott. He’s the founder and owner of JC Scott Eco Design Associates, and you can go to his website at JCScott.com and find out more about what he does and see his beautiful designs.
So JC, you do interior design. We’ve been talking about building construction but you actually do interior design, yes?
JC SCOTT: I primarily work as an interior designer, yes, but I have actually designed things as large as whole resorts. Of course, when I’m doing the overall design, I work with – bridged through architects and engineers, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers. But I do projects of every size.
DEBRA: Okay, good. So let’s talk about what some of the toxic chemicals are in the interior product that people might be encountering if they’re not doing it in a toxic-free way, things that you’ve learned about this.
JC SCOTT: Well, that’ s a monster question. The reality is that virtually everything in the normal construction process and normal furnishings is toxic in my opinion.
DEBRA: I agree with you.
JC SCOTT: It’s a scary thing to say but the truth is that there is – we’ll start in a room where at the ceiling, the paint is probably to a certain degree, toxic. In the drywall, there could be, if the home was built between the 60s and 80s, there is going to be asbestos in the drywall mud.
As we come down the walls, [inaudible 00:15:40] is more paint, there would be anything from vapor barriers to toxicity in the insulation in the walls. There could be vital wallpaper. We get down to the trims and baseboards, we’re using more and more plastic wood instead of real wood for trims, even down to the floor. The floor is actually one of the absolute worst in those toxic things in the home, which I’m sure you know.
The multiplicity of flooring products are almost all made from petrochemical-based products. Nylon carpet, vinyl flooring, and strangely enough, this is where we put some of the people and animals that we love best, kids and dogs and cats live, play, eat on the floor, and they’re doing that in a toxic soup, which is really frustrating to me. They don’t just sit on chairs that are full of fire retardants on plastic fabrics. It’s a nightmare for me.
DEBRA: I totally understand. And one of the things, talking about flooring, I have something I want to say because I think it’s so horrific, is that in new construction, most subflooring is particle board, which means that every square inch of your home has this foundation of formaldehyde admitting particle board. And it just starts with there.
And then they put in formaldehyde particle board cabinets. Sometimes I walk into homes, when I do consulting, I walk into homes and there is so much particle board in it. People practically have to rip everything out in order to not have all this formaldehyde exposure. And it’s really – I mean we know the dangers with formaldehyde. We know that it can cause cancer. We know all the other symptoms that it causes. And yet, building codes still allow that to be acceptable.
JC SCOTT: Absolutely. And yet, we can today find alternates, as you said, even at the local building stores, for all of those products. And the good news today is that they don’t generally cost more or they don’t cost a lot more. And certainly, if you value your health or the health of your children or your pets or anyone you care about at all, it’s pretty easy to justify the small change and cost of doing it right.
The real problem is education, awareness and habits. We need to get people, particularly in the construction and design industries to start changing their habits, to ask the important questions and to make the right decisions.
DEBRA: I agree. Another source of materials but you have to be a little careful about these. When I used to live in Northern California, I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area. I was actually born there and then lived there until 14 years ago when I moved to Florida. But there, there’s a tremendous amount of architectural salvage, and I have had the pleasure of remodeling our home there in the San Francisco Bay Area where practically everything I used was salvaged materials. And you have to be careful because sometimes they had lead paint on them or various things.
But there is so much – I was buying marble countertops slabs for $5 a square foot and things like that. And it’s just amazing what you can find at salvage, the beauty of the materials that doors and windows and just all of these things that you don’t even see in houses today you can get on salvage, which is also an eco-friendly thing to do by recycling.
JC SCOTT: Absolutely. Recycling is often an extremely safe way to go because a long time ago, they just didn’t have the plastics and formaldehydes. So if you’re buying something that’s real wood – even with the lead paint, if you’re careful, if you were to repaint rather than spending a lot of time on sanding, if you are going to buy something that’s old with pain and sand, make sure you do it outside. Make sure you wear a dust mask and that you deal with the waste carefully.
But you’re absolutely right, Debra. Recycling and salvaging is one of the best things that we can do for ourselves, for our budget and for the planet because of the embedded carbon and because of the health benefits.
DEBRA: And it also costs so much less. One of my favorite stories is that at a salvage yard, I bought a whole crate of tile to tile my bathroom, enough to do the whole entire shower, for $80. And then I wanted some decorative trim. And so I took a piece of this tile into a high end tile store in Berkeley, California, and they told me this piece of tile was $15 a square foot. And I got it for $80 because it was just leftover on a construction site.
So you really can save, and you can really get beautiful things. It’s amazing.
JC SCOTT: Absolutely. It’s true. And as you mentioned marble countertops, I almost always use stone counters in all of my projects because they’re inherently much healthier. There are no plastics. There’s a lot of this stuff now on the market that’s manmade stone, which people –
DEBRA: I need to interrupt you because we need to go to break. And we’ll talk about that when we come back. You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and my guest today is JC Scott. And you can go to his website, JCScott.com and find out more about his interior design work. We’ll be right back.
DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and my guest today is JC Scott. He’s an artist and founder of JC Scott Eco Design Associates in Victoria, BC, Canada. And his website is JCScott.com
So JC, before the break, we were talking about countertops. So just go ahead and talk about countertops but let’s talk about them from the viewpoint now of what are the countertops you recommend, what you would put in a healthy home.
JC SCOTT: That’s a good question. There are a few places that I feel are really important in terms of making changes. If you’re building an all new place, that’s easy, but if you’ve got a place that you live in and you like and you don’t want to tear it down, the thing to look at is the change that you can make that are going to make a difference.
So for the kitchen, particularly, I like to look at the countertops because that’s where all the food gets prepared. A lot of people have plastic countertops. A lot of countertops have different degrees of toxicity or porosity. So if you choose a marble or a granite, which are my first choices, I simply recommend that they be sealed adequately. And you’ve got a nice, healthy, natural place to prepare your food.
DEBRA: What do you seal them with?
JC SCOTT: The best sealer for me is a form of natural wax. There’s a marble wax that penetrates into the stone a little bit and if you ever spill them or something on the marble, you can always steel wool the stain away and then put a bit more of the marble wax down. It’s a natural wax and not petroleum-based.
DEBRA: That sounds interesting.
JC SCOTT: That’s one. Then, of course, granites, are even less porous and very good, a little bit more expensive but more popular for kitchens and they’re wonderful, and similarly, in bathrooms. But the most important place for me when people say, “Where should I start?” I ask them to buy a healthy pillow and then a healthy bed because there’s no place where we spend more time in an environment that should be healthy and healing than in our bed and in our bedroom. So I’m very fussy about pillows and beds, bedding, mattresses. That’s the second one after the kitchen cabinets.
DEBRA: I totally agree.
JC SCOTT: And then the third one that people change relatively off and over the course of the life of the home, at least, is the flooring. And of course, we’ve talked about that already.
So if you’ve had healthy floors, healthy counter and a healthy bed, and you didn’t live right on a busy street, so you’re able to open your windows and get some natural ventilation, you’d make a huge difference to the health of your home.
DEBRA: I think so too. I usually start with the floor because if I go into a home and somebody wants me to make it less toxic, then usually, they’ve got a flooring that is toxic. And I have even gotten down on my hands and knees and helped people rip their carpets off the floor because carpets are just so uniformly so bad unless they get very specific toxic-free wool carpets.
So I think you’re exactly right on the right track.
So I know that you worked to do designs for people with multiple chemical sensitivities. Would you tell us about that?
JC SCOTT: First of all, I feel very sorry for people who have that because in this world in which we live, having chemical sensitivity is a real challenge because so much of what we’ve built is poisonous. So when I’m working with people with chemical sensitivity, of course, we start with the things that are going to be the worst, like the flooring. But it’s pervasive. For some people, it’s a genuine challenge. But it’s possible. It’s possible to even renovate places to make them suitable for people with chemical sensitivity. But obviously, if possible, it’s best to start with new construction because there are just so many things that can set off someone with multiple chemical sensitivities. And as you would know better than I, no two are alike. Every person who has sensitivity has a different form of sensitivity, even to the same materials and toxins.
So we have to do what, I guess, we call the sniff test. People have to – even when we think something is going to be good, we still test it with our clients to make sure that not only is it a safe-listed product but that they are tolerant of it as well.
DEBRA: That’s exactly right because it’s very individual for people with MCS. So could you tell us some of the materials that you used in a home that you’ve done for MCS?
JC SCOTT: Yes, for flooring, I like concrete, marmoleum, which is a product made from cork and then cheese oil on a hemp backing. Most chemical sensitive people are tolerant of that because it’s very inert and safe.
I like hardwood, including bamboo. But once again, we have to make sure that the treatment on those, particularly for engineered products, are safe. Some people with chemical sensitivities are okay with natural wall carpeting but carpets can hold more dust, et cetera, so we have to be careful on that and have good, cleaning programs.
I can go on and on but basically, in terms of flooring, you want something that’s as inert as possible, no toxins, and easily cleanable.
DEBRA: I agree. What kind of paint do you like?
JC SCOTT: Of course, it’s VOC-free or low VOC. In terms of actual manufacturers, I like Farrow & Ball, the British manufacturer.
DEBRA: I know that one.
JC SCOTT: Their paints are pretty good. But Sherwin Williams, all the big companies now have good things. But certainly, the absolute healthiest would be what’s called milk paint.
DEBRA: Yes, that’s my number one at the top of my list because there are no plastics or petrochemicals or anything and it’s just made out of milk and natural materials. I love it! It goes on so beautifully. I have one room that I painted with it. And now, when I paint the next room, it’s my favorite paint of all time.
We need to go to break. You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and my guest today is JC Scott. He’s an artist and the founder and owner of JC Scott Eco Design Associates in Victoria, BC, Canada. And you can go to his website, JCScott.com, and he’s got some beautiful designs to see there. We’ll be right back.
DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and my guest today is JC Scott. And he is an interior designer who specializes in healthy homes and eco-friendly construction.
So JC, one of the things that we didn’t mention when we were talking about paints is clay and colored clay plaster. When I remodeled my bathroom, I had a water leak and I had to strip everything down to the spuds and make a completely new bathroom. And what I chose for that room was American Clay Plaster. What do you think about that?
JC SCOTT: I’m so glad to hear that. American Clay is one of the wonder products in the chemical sensitivity world and the eco products world because clay has this amazing ability and not just be good, more to do less bad, is some of the people in our industry say. But it actually cleans the air. An American Clay –
DEBRA: Oh it did?
JC SCOTT: Yes, it is. The best air cleaner that you can get is plants. Plants are constantly, what’s called, respirating, where they basically, as we know, taking in the carbon dioxide and monoxide and creating oxygen. And so I try and build as many living balls or put as many plants into spaces as I can.
But the next best is to use American Clay as a – or there some others, but American Clay is the market leader. And that clay will actually take toxins out of the air and clean the air. So it’s a wonder product. And the only thing better than milk paint, in my experience, for walls and ceilings is the American Clay Plaster.
DEBRA: I thoroughly loved my experience of using it. But with milk paint and American Clay Plaster it’s not like putting paints on the wall. You don’t to have actually be an artist, I think, because it’s not like opening the can and just painting it on, you have to mix your colors and you have to take these pigment powders and then mix the color to be exactly the color you like. And you need to mix enough to be able to do the whole room in the same color batch. So it really is more of a very hands on experience to use these things. But you end up with these beautiful, beautiful effects. And I would certainly have another room in clay plaster.
I’ll tell you that milk paint is a little easier to use but the reason I chose it for my bathroom is because it absorbs moisture and so the walls don’t mold. And then as the air becomes dry, it can release moisture back into the room. And since moisture is the big problem in bathrooms, I actually think that every bathroom should have clay plaster to be the bathroom wall covering.
JC SCOTT: Absolutely. I’m really glad that we’re meeting on the radio. I know we’ve exchanged some things by e-mail as well which made us want to talk to each other. But there are so few people that I know who know what you know and I what I know and it’s so important that everybody should know this.
DEBRA: Yes, I agree.
JC SCOTT: It’s delightful to be having this conversation with you.
DEBRA: Thank you. Thank you. So I wanted to ask you too about your 100 Mile Design.
JC SCOTT: Well, 100 Mile Design is based on – it’s my tribute to the 100 Mile Diet. I think I told you that my voyage probably started in the health food store. I’ve always taken supplements, I’ve always eaten organic food, and I’ve tried to bring that whole approach to my design practice as well. So what does that mean? It means healthy materials, it means local materials. It means caring about everybody who is involved in the whole we all call food chain but supply chain of the products. So there it’s the three-legged stool of sustainability, who the people are, what the materials are and what the socioeconomic impacts of the decisions that we make are. And it’s really important to us. We have some 10 principles that we follow. But the most important is it’s like that the Locavore Food Movement is, to say it politely, birds don’t defecate in their own nests. And as long as we take that approach with our own communities, our own materials, our own homes, we’ll live a lot healthier and better lives.
DEBRA: Well, it’s also going back to what we talked about at the beginning of this show, to live locally is the way one lives if one is living out of nature that we – I think everybody alive today, unless you’ve lived in a very remote part of the world, is basically living in an industrial culture, which means that industrial factories make everything that you use.
But it wasn’t that way even a hundred years ago. Or we should probably say a 125 years ago, 150 years ago now, because it used to be that people made everything that they used.
One of the things that I learned to do is I’d love to go to these historical re-enactment places and I remember one of the ones that I went to, one of the things that they were demonstrating was how girls would sit in the evening, they would sit and braid straw to make hats. And it’s just like all these different parts of their lives were all about how do we spend our time and our effort in order to make these things from our surrounding environment.
Until that moment, it never occurred to me. I walked through a field and I see straw, these dried straws. But it never occurred to me to weave into a hat. It never occurred to me. And I think that we don’t even think of these things.
JC SCOTT: It’s true. It’s true. I don’t know if in North America, we’re going to go back to that sort of thing. But I think we can create a new version of, what I’ll call, a back to our land or natural awareness program. I’m reading a really great book by David C. Korten right now about how we have to start valuing the environment more than money. And I think he’s right on that.
DEBRA: I agree with that too.
JC SCOTT: In that same vein, we have to value our stones and our health. When people brag to me about how much money they saved on a certain food product or a certain thing that they’ve purchased, and yet, I know that what choice they made in saving that money is actually toxic and threatening to them, it’s really hard to engage in a conversation because you don’t want to be critical of people all the time, particularly, when they’re bragging about something that they feel proud of.
This whole sense that the only real value in life is how cheaply we can buy something, it’s poisoning people and it’s no wonder we have such high rates of cancer and sickness in our society. People aren’t finding the real value in life which is healthier food, clean air, clean water, getting exercise, as you say, getting in touch with nature. Just taking a walk in the park is probably a lot better for you than taking a drive in your new car.
DEBRA: It absolutely is. And a number of years ago, maybe 20 years, 25 years ago now, I went through a whole shift from being very much an industrial consumer to recognizing that, wait a minute, if we don’t have an earth, if we don’t have the whole supporting at ecosystem, then we’re not going to survive as species. They are not going to be any humans if we destroy the planet. That just is it. That all the things that we go buy in the store all come from the natural resources of the earth. And those recourses aren’t going to be there if we keep destroying ecosystems.
And it’s such a beautiful thing to me to know that I’m part of that whole living cycle of all the living things on earth. I just love that idea. And I think that if more people were to understand that and have that awakening and that recognition, that the world would be a different place. And I think it would be a much better place.
JC SCOTT: Humans can play a really positive role in the biodiversity of life. If we look at indigenous cultures all over the world, in historic situations or in the state in which some they were living before western colonization, you’ll find that people were part of a very balanced way of living on this planet. And we have to get back to something like that and let’s start with ourselves. My statement to people is be as selfish as you want. I don’t care how selfish you are. If you really take a very, very selfish approach and just start thinking about what you’re doing to yourself and for yourself, you’ll eventually become an environmentalist because very few people would knowingly poison themselves.
DEBRA: I think that’s a very true statement. Yes. The problem is they don’t know they’re poisoning themselves.
JC SCOTT: Exactly. Very few ads on TV, the medical ads always have those little bylines of this could actually lead you to death.
DEBRA: It should be that way for all toxic cleaning products and everything.
JC SCOTT: That should be on every sofa ad, on every ad for – this chair could kill you. This bed will probably kill you. It will just take a few years.
Those kind of qualifiers should be on all the ads and people might start to wake up a little bit.
DEBRA: I think so.
Well, we probably got less than a minute left. So I’d like to thank you so much for being a guest on the show. My guest has been JC Scott. He is the owner of JC Scott Eco Design Associates, and his website is JCScott.com. So you can go there and get more information about him.
Anything you want to say for the next 15 seconds?
JC SCOTT: Yes, I think you’re great, Debra. Keep going. People need this information and I’m really proud of you for putting it out there so broadly to so many people.
DEBRA: Thank you so much. So you’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio and you can go to ToxicFreeTalkRadio.com and find out about the upcoming guests, you can listen to all the shows, all the past shows, over 200 of them are in the archives and you can listen to them any time you want, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. ToxicFreeTalkRadio.com. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. Be well.