My guest today is Kevin Aylward co-founder and Owner of Prairie Rugs and Yogasana. We’ll be talking about how they produce high quality natural fiber area rugs and yoga mats in a sustainable way, and the trend toward sustainable home furnishings. After graduation from the University of Minnesota, Kevin began a career in sales and marketing in home furnishings. In 1996 he co-founded Prairie Rugs a manufacturer of eco-friendly cotton area rugs hand-made in India. In 2005 he became sole owner of Prairie Rugs, Inc., which was focused on eco-sustainable manufacturing before the ‘green’ movement became fashionable. Prairie Rugs is the only rug company in the U.S. that is a Founding Member of the Sustainable Furnishings Council. Working with his partner in India they used their expertise in cotton weaving to make a mat that is dedicated to the practice of Yoga. This seemed like a natural progression because the region of India where the cotton rugs are made is also the area where yoga originated. A new company named Yogasana began production of cotton yoga mats in December 2010. They have sold their cotton yoga mats to yogi in 30 countries around the world. www.prairierugs.com | www.yogasanamats.com
TOXIC FREE TALK RADIO
All Natural Area Rugs and Yoga Mats
Host: Debra Lynn Dadd
Guest: Kevin Aylward
Date of Broadcast: February 3, 2014
DEBRA: Hi, I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. And this is Toxic Free Talk Radio where we talk about how to thrive in a toxic world because there are toxic chemicals all around us in all kinds of consumer products in our homes, in our bodies, in the water we drink, in schools and workplaces and public spaces… everywhere! But we can create our own sanctuary, so to speak, of a toxic-free environment in our own homes. We can remove toxic chemicals from our bodies and we can surround the places we live and work and fill the places we live and work with lovely, toxic-free products.
Today is Monday, February 3rd 2014. And we’ve got a nice overcast late winter, early spring day going on here in Clearwater, Florida. We’re going to be talking about rugs and yoga mats today, area rugs and yoga mats. And these particular ones are made in a very sustainable and toxic-free way and an example of one of those kinds of products that I just—
There are, I would say, a gradient of what’s toxic-free. And at the very bottom—or I shouldn’t say at the bottom because nothing that’s toxic-free is at the bottom. But there are toxic-free in that you would just take a standard product that might be toxic, like paint for example, and just make it out of non-toxic chemicals, and it’s toxic-free. But way at the top of the scale would be a product that’s not only free from toxic chemicals, but it’s also good for nature, the environment, our health, our life, as well as being free from toxic chemicals. And that’s the level of product that we’re going to be talking about today.
My guest is Kevin Aylward. He’s the Co-founder and Owner of Prairie rugs and another separate business called Yogasana. Prairie Rugs makes area rugs. And Yogasana makes yoga mats in actually the ancient region where yoga had its origin.
And so we’re going to be talking about how they do this in a sustainable way.
Thanks for being on the show, Kevin.
KEVIN AYLWARD: Thank you, Debra. Greetings from snowy and cold Minnesota.
DEBRA: I was just thinking that. You must be freezing. I don’t know if you’ve heard the news right before we came on. They were talking about how there’s another blast. And I have a friend who’s going to Minnesota on Wednesday, and I was thinking,
“Oh, he’d better bring warm clothes.” What’s the temperature there?
KEVIN AYLWARD: Oh, it’s zero one above, I’m not sure, pumping around zero. But that seems relatively moderate compared to what it’s been, the sub-zero last that we’ve got. You’ve heard about the polar vortex. So we’re taking the brunt of that a couple, two or three, times.
So, this is one of the colder winters I can remember. But we’re hardy up here, and we don’t complain as you know [inaudible 03:18].
DEBRA: Good! That’s right, that’s right.
KEVIN AYLWARD: We’re very stoic. We’re very stoic.
DEBRA: We’re hovering around 70 here.
KEVIN AYLWARD: Well, if we could split the difference, Debra, we’d both be relatively comfortable.
DEBRA: Yes, I’m sitting here in a little tank top and Capri pants.
KEVIN AYLWARD: Good! Well, we’re waiting for spring. So there we go.
DEBRA: Good, good.
So, tell me. This is a very unusual thing that you’ve been doing. You didn’t start doing this just because the green movement came along. You’ve been doing your area rugs since 1996, right, before anybody was talking about this. Tell me about your background and how you came to do this unusual thing when you decided to do it.
KEVIN AYLWARD: Well, I guess the genesis of the story really, I guess, goes back to when I married a woman from India. My wife is from India. And I graduated from Delhi University. And we moved to the States when we met. And she introduced me to my partner, my original partner, with Prairie Rugs. He was also from India. And he had the manufacturer relationship there.
And we began Prairie Rugs back then.
But I guess the reason that we weren’t late to the green manufacturing game, why it began that way I think is because which are called rag rugs—or the trade name for them is chindi rugs (and chindi is a Hindi word for “rags”—my Indian wife who was Hindi speaker tells me the manufacturing process is inherently sustainable. The base product is recycled—recycled cotton rags.
And while it’s always been important to me, I don’t think there wasn’t much of a call for green home furnishings when we began. We always leaned in that direction and tried t keep the supply chain manufacturing as eco-responsible as possible.
And the trend then developed, and we just played to our strength in that point.
DEBRA: Yeah, that’s very interesting. I also want to just commend you for—1996, so you’ve been married for quite a while.
KEVIN AYLWARD: Oh, much longer! We’ve been married for 26 years.
KEVIN AYLWARD: Thank you, thank you.
DEBRA: And I think it’s wonderful that you’re doing a business that combines both your cultures, and it’s something that you’ve integrated. I just think that’s wonderful.
KEVIN AYLWARD: Well, thank you. Thank you.
DEBRA: So, let’s see. Tell us then what happened that you ended up—you were doing Prairie Rugs for quite a long time before you decided to also make yoga mats.
KEVIN AYLWARD: Yeah! Well, maybe I’ll take you to the Prairie Rugs genesis a little bit first if that’s alright.
DEBRA: That’s fine, that’s fine.
KEVIN AYLWARD: I’ll tell you how the rugs are made. We visit the manufacturing facility in India at least once a year (sometimes more). And as I mentioned, the process is inherently sustainable because we’re using recycled materials. I’ve pushed and I’ve worked with my manufacturing partners there to try and increase the ways and means we’re doing to make it more eco-friendly.
That’s not something that’s necessarily that well-known or sought after in India. As I mentioned rag rug-making was using recycled materials. There is no power. There is no child labor. That’s the nature of the process.
But we wanted to take it even beyond there and find out if there are ways and means in the manufacturing process where we could improve things and make it more eco-sustainable.
So basically, the cotton scrap is material that’s bought from mills. And it’s pre-consumer. It’s residual cotton. It’s been destined for making bedding and things like that.
So, we buy it from the mills in large bales. And then it’s sorted. And there’s lots of things in the bales. Sometimes, not all of it is cotton. There could be other scraps of this and that. So it’s all sorted out. And the better grades are used. They’re graded I think one through eight or something like that. So we’d use grade six through one in our rugs.
And then, it’s washed and cleaned. And one of the processes that we changed is, initially, they were using bleach to clean the cotton, and we switched to a biodegradable detergent which is more eco-friendly. So we changed that process.
And then, the cotton is dyed all by hand. And then after it’s dyed, it is washed—and not only once, not only twice, but three times, triple-washed in separate basins of water (each clean). And then, within each basin, they’re moving the cotton strips around to try and get the residual dye off of them, and then to put it into the next basin and the third basin.
And then, finally, it’s put out to dry in the hot Indian sun.
After it’s dried, it’s issued to weavers. The weaving is all done by hand, manually.
And then, there’s kind of a final inspection. They’re sort of cutting off the tabs and the little imperfections on the mats and on the rugs too.
And then they’re packaged in India and sent to us here.
DEBRA: We need to take a break. But after the break, I want to ask you to elaborate on some of the points that you just described because you’re doing a lot of unusual things that I want to hear more about.
KEVIN AYLWARD: Great!
DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. My guest today is Kevin Aylward. He is from Prairie Rugs and Yogasana Eco Yoga Mats that are made sustainably in India. We’ll be right back.
DEBRA: This is Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. My guest today is Kevin Aylward, co-founder and owner of Prairie Rugs and Yogasana. They make these rugs in India by sustainable methods.
Kevin, I was really interested to read on your website, you were talking about that the fabrics are hand-dyed. Now, when you say hand-dyed, I think you’re talking about dyed by hand like a person putting a fabric in a pot and not in a factory. But are they actually putting their hands in that? I was thinking as you were talking, “Well, I wonder if they…?”
KEVIN AYLWARD: No. No, no. No, not at all. They’re dyed by hand meaning it’s hand labor. It’s a manual process, not a mechanical process. I’m looking at a picture of one of our dyers right now, and it is in a pot heated with wood. And he uses a long pole to mix the cotton strips around within the pot.
So, it is all by hand. It is not by the manipulation of the cotton. And the dye bath is by hand, not by machine. I guess that’s what I meant by hand-dyed.
DEBRA: Yeah. Well, the reason that I thought of that is because it also says on your website that the water, after rinsing the dying process—what does it say exactly? “The residual dye water is used to irrigate vegetables and mango trees that surround the manufacturing plant.” So your dyes must be really non-toxic?
KEVIN AYLWARD: Yes, they are, they are. Now there’s an interesting story how I found this out. I didn’t know that originally.
Years ago, I was calling on a group of stores, natural food stores, out in Colorado that was eventually bought by Whole Foods. Whole Foods owns all the natural food stores as you know. But at any rate, this is a chain. And I was trying to sell my rugs to them.
And the buyer asked me, “What do you do with the residual dye water after it goes through the dying process?” I said, “No one has ever asked me that question. I really don’t know.” I told her, “I don’t know. I’ll find out for you.”
So, I contacted my partner in India, I said, “What do we do with the dye water? Don’t tell me we’re dumping it into the Ganges.”
He said, “No, no. It isn’t. It’s treated. And It is used to irrigate our vegetables” that surround his manufacturing facility and groves of mango trees.
I was so happy that I could get back to this buyer and tell her that because that is a true story. It’s absolutely true.
DEBRA: Well, it just reflects the care that goes into every step. I mean, I can just see this whole process of the cotton being grown. Your cotton is grown right there somewhere nearby, isn’t it? And then, it goes…
KEVIN AYLWARD: It’s nearby. We don’t know exactly because there’s no source of the cotton coming from the mills. But we know it’s coming from Northern India is where it is. And we’re very familiar with the mill and their reputation. We feel very confident about the source of the cotton.
DEBRA: So you have this cotton, and it’s being grown nearby. And then, it gets turned into this fabric that is used to make bedding. And then, that fabric has some scraps. And then the scraps come to you and you make another product. You make these wonderful area rugs and yoga mats. And then, whatever is left over, like your residual dye water, it just goes on to do something else—to water the vegetables. And probably the workers eat those vegetables and those mangoes.
KEVIN AYLWARD: Yes!
DEBRA: Everything is just very integrated into your natural system.
KEVIN AYLWARD: That’s all true. That is all true. And we feel very good about the way the workers are being treated. Aside from the due diligence that I’ve done with my partner over there, we did something interesting a few years ago. As I mentioned, my wife is from India. So I engaged my partner in the office while she went out and talked to the workers in Hindi, especially the women. I could try and do the same thing, but may not get the same answer that she would—it’s actually a woman talking to a woman. And we feel very good about how they’re being treated and that healthcare is provided for their familiar. So the karma is good. The karma is good.
DEBRA: Good karma. You know, one of the things that I like about products like yours that have a story like this where everything that you’re doing is interwoven in nature is similar to the mattress that I sleep on which is made out of wool. It’s made by a company called Shepherd’s Dream.
And when I got this mattress, I lived in Northern California, maybe an hour away from where they actually made them. And all the wool the sheep that provided the wool was all in a very local area. In fact, I worked with them to write the first organic wool standards for their growers.
I still sleep on this mattress. And I don’t know, it’s been 15 years or something, but it’s just like new. And I can see a picture in my mind of the sheep. I know where the sheep were raised. I know the room where this mattress was sewn. I had slept on mattresses in this workspace. And it’s like all that interconnection is there as part of the experience of my having this mattress.
And now that I know the story about your rugs, if I had one of your rugs on my floor, that whole story will be there in the rug.
KEVIN AYLWARD: Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. That’s really nice to hear. And maybe that segways a little bit into the genesis of this second company I have that you mentioned. In the west, it’s called Yogasana. In the east…
DEBRA: Well, before we go talk about that, we’re going to have to go to break in just a few seconds. So let’s take a break and start the story when we come back.
You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. Let’s give Kevin’s website. It’s PrairieRugs.com. And the business we’re about to talk about is YogasanaMats.com. And you can go to my website, Toxic Free Talk Radio, and find out more about this radio show and listen to all the radio shows from the past. We’ll be right back!
DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. My guest today is Kevin Aylward. He’s the founder and owner of Prairie Rugs and Yogasana.
Okay, Kevin, tell us about Yogasana. I know this is what you most want to talk about.
KEVIN AYLWARD: Well, it’s true, Debra. It is my passion, it is. Well, I co-founded Prairie Rugs with two other partners; now I’m the sole owner of the company. Yogasana—which by the way, in the East, it’s pronounced, Yogasana. In the west, it’s Yogasana. Either is correct. I guess I go with the Eastern pronunciation, but either is correct.
This is something that I founded along with my partner in India—I conceived of, and he helped execute. So, the story begins where I was approached by several companies here—one even quite large one—that makes yoga mats. And they asked us to weave a cotton mat for them. When it comes to weaving cotton in India, that is our specialty. We’re known pretty well for that within the industry, within the trade.
So, I looked in that. I could’ve done that. And this would’ve been for their brand. And I thought, “Rather than building up their brand, why don’t we do our own?”
DEBRA: I want to ask you a question. What is unique about a yoga mat that’s separate and distinct from an area rug? If I were practicing yoga, why wouldn’t I just get one of your Prairie rugs?
KEVIN AYLWARD: Very good question. And I began with that premise. So we looked at Prairie Rugs, and I even made some samples, which I have. They’re 2 x 6 which is the normal size of yoga mats. They’re 24’ wide by 72’ long. 68’ is actually the standard. We went to 72 inches.
And I quickly found amongst myself and others who were much more adept at yoga than I am that the product was not suited. Number one, it’s too heavy. A 2 x 6 Prairie rug weights almost 8 lbs. It’s quite heavy, too heavy. And second, the cotton strips are not a good texture, not a good surface for yoga practice. It’s too slippery. It’s too slippery, too heavy.
DEBRA: Hmmm… okay, good.
KEVIN AYLWARD: So, we knew that wouldn’t work. So we started out with a blank sheet. Rather than taking an existing product which is a flat weave—Prairie Rugs would be considered a flat weave or a duree (we know cotton durees are a flat weave)—rather than taking one of those and repurposing it as a yoga mat or call it a yoga mat essentially, I said to my partner, “Let’s try and design a cotton rug for yoga—blank sheet, the best materials, the best weave.”
So, the base material is different than our Prairie Rug for Yogasana. It’s more of a thread than it is the cotton strips.
So, he made some samples. I said, “Make us some samples, 2 x 6.” We brought them over, and I gave them to friends of mine who are serious yogis and those that practice different styles of yoga—hot yoga, hatha yoga, vinyasa, the flow types of yoga, restorative yoga, different types. And then, I had them review the mat and its performance.
I gave them a sheet of 15 different questions. How does it work for grip and color and washability and weight and size and all these kinds of things.
And interestingly enough, he did the same thing with some yogis in India. We wanted to get both perspectives on that.
And then, out of those reviews and reports, we refined the product and developed it to what it is today which is a 2 x 6, 24” x 72” yoga or a cotton composition which we believe is the most eco-sustainable yoga mat on the planet.
DEBRA: So, when you say cotton composition, the first thing I think is that there’s some synthetic material in it. But no, it’s 100% cotton. So how is that cotton different from the cotton that’s in the rug?
KEVIN AYLWARD: It’s different. The cotton in the rug are cotton strips. I mentioned we buy them from the mills. They’re about 18” long and about an inch to an inch and a quarter wide. They’re a strip of cotton.
The cotton in our mat is actually a thread. It’s a cotton thread. So the source is different.
DEBRA: Oh, I see.
KEVIN AYLWARD: So, it’s a different source. And the manufacturing process is slightly different. But it is all cotton. It’s 100% cotton—cotton warp, cotton weft. Cotton composition, it’s strictly composed of cotton.
DEBRA: Yes, I got it. I got it.
KEVIN AYLWARD: A hundred percent, yeah.
DEBRA: I want to hear more about that you don’t use any electricity. I’m looking at a picture on the Yogasana site of a man weaving. He’s in a very open air kind of place with no walls. And so, you mentioned using coal before, but this is very much not a factory.
KEVIN AYLWARD: It’s not. It’s more of a cottage industry because it is an organized space where we’re making the mats and the rugs. But there’s no electricity being used. Most of the processes are done by hand manually. The weaving is on a manual loom. The dying is with coal-fired vat of dye. The warp thread is stretched just by hand. They put up two posts and run the warp between that and stretch it out. And the cotton dries in the sun. The water comes from a well on the site.
I get asked often about the question of child labor. It’s not that there isn’t a lot of child labor in India; there’s a lot. Oftentimes, it’s cottage industry, people making things at home. But this product does not lend itself to work by children. It’s more heavy-lifting and more of a rigorous process, so there is no child labor involved at all.
And so, it is very much of a hand-made process, again, inherently in making these kinds of products.
DEBRA: Again, we need to go to break very soon. But I was just thinking about the tradition of all these handcraft work in India and the spiritual roots of that and Gandhi setting up these villages. Maybe you could tell us more about that after the break.
And I also want to hear about the Sustainable Furnishings Council.
DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. My guest today is Kevin Aylward. And we’re talking about making rugs and yoga mats in India. He’s the owner of Prairie Rugs and Yogasana. And the websites are PrairieRugs.com and YogasanaMats.com.
So Kevin, tell us more about the tradition of handcrafts and how India got set up that way.
KEVIN AYLWARD: Yeah, that’s a really important part of the story. Weaving has been a tradition in India for thousands of years. And I think really, on the rug side—and you mentioned Gandhi before the break—[Gandhi] talked to the Indian population about the importance of home-spun clothe to try and help liberate the Indian population from the reliance on cloth coming from England before their independence, to be self-sufficient, self-reliant that way. And that became a huge movement.
Now, with regards to my yoga mats, people say, “Well, how did the idea begin, the genesis of that idea?” And in a way, it really began with this 15th century saint from India. He was a mystic poet and saint called Kabir. He was a poet, a saint. But his profession was a weaver. He was a weaver by profession. That’s how he made his living to be self-sufficient.
And weaving cloth in this part of northern India has been a tradition for thousands of years. The city we’re situated there is a very old city. It’s one of the oldest cities in the world. The city’s history dates back up 10,000 years if you can imagine that. It’s a city, a place, where Hinduism was founded and is also sacred to Buddhism. So it’s steep in mysticism and spirituality.
So, if you think about the weaving tradition and the spiritual tradition, it’s the place where yoga really began. So it seems like a natural progression for us to make this mat there.
And so, we talked about how it’s made and the traditions on which it derives from. But the final piece is—and I didn’t mention this, this is really important—that each mat that is made, it takes 10 days to make each mat including three days of weaving, three days on the loom. After which, the master weaver who made the mat signs a signature card that stays with the mat. And this way, it forms a connection between the weaver and the yoga who is eventually going to use this mat—from his hands to her hands in most cases.
I thought that was really important. I wanted to get that in.
DEBRA: I think it’s really important too. There’s such a connection that occurs with products like yours between the earth and the artisan and the user that is totally gone in industrialized products. You have no idea where the material comes from. A machine is making it. There’s a whole tradition of handcrafted things, having heart to them. And you’ve just got it all the way down the line. I can really see that your yoga mats would be very special to somebody who does yoga practice and knowing that they’re made in that place where yoga was developed. It’s all part of the story.
Everything that you’re doing just down the line, I wish that every product was made like yours, with the care and the thoughtfulness into sustainability not only in materials but in terms of history and human connection and connecting the user with the entire process.
And having pictures on your site and all those kinds of things, it’s just… just, just… I’m sitting here smiling.
KEVIN AYLWARD: Well, thank you, Debra. It’s really important me.
And the other thing that we’re doing which is the key to the sustaining this new company, Yogasana, is we have to give back.
We’re giving back to support the education of the production workers’ children. My wife is involved with this foundation and my partner’s wife in India. We call it Yogasana Circle. A portion of every mat that we sell goes towards this cause. And when a yogi buys a mat online, they can make an additional donation if they chose.
And a hundred percent of what is given goes towards our foundation called Yogasana Circle. There’s nothing lost in transfer.
There’s no administration. Every dime, every penny goes towards this.
So, right now, we’re supporting school supplies for the children of the workers—their books and pencils and backpacks and uniforms and things like that. But as the company grows, we’d love to say, one day, that we’re going to be able to build a school over there for these kids.
Education is really important. It’s really important to me. And it’s especially important to my wife coming from India and recognizing how that empowers the youth.
So, that foundation empowers Yogasana. That’s our energy source. So it’s really, really important to us.
DEBRA: How wonderful! Tell us about the Sustainable Furnishings Council. You were one of the first founding members and the only rug company in the United States that’s a founding member.
KEVIN AYLWARD: That’s correct! And the reason is, when the Sustainable Furnishings Council began in 2006, as I’ve mentioned, I had an interest in sustainability, so it was natural for me to sign on. And before it was really popularized, I signed on before any other rug company signed on. So even though I’m a very small company—Prairie Rugs is small—I’m the only rug company in the US that’s a founding member of the Sustainable Furnishings Council.
DEBRA: And what does the Sustainable Furnishings Council do?
KEVIN AYLWARD: Well, what it is, it’s an organization that supports sustainable manufacturing and retailing methods in home furnishing. And while they’re not a third-party certifier like others are, they’re basically rallying around a membership that has the same vision in terms of purveying sustainable furnishings if you’re a retailer or making or using sustainable methods if you’re a manufacturer or a distributor.
And basically, what’s required of me—there’s a membership required, a yearly membership—I have to sign an affidavit each year stating that the methods that we’re suggesting that we use are indeed true. And that membership has to be maintained year after year.
So, I love the idea initially. I thought that they were heading the right direction. It was natural for us because, as I’ve mentioned, our rugs are inherently. And they’re doing very good work, so that’s why I support them.
DEBRA: Good! I’m happy to see that they’re there in the industry so that people can have a resource and belong to something that supports sustainability.
So, we only have a few minutes left on the show. Didn’t that go by fast?
KEVIN AYLWARD: It did for me. I could talk on and on about this. As I’ve said, it’s my passion.
DEBRA: Well, is there anything that you want to make sure that you say that you haven’t said in the next three minutes?
KEVIN AYLWARD: Basically, as I’ve mentioned, Prairie rugs are really important to me and we continue to do that. The yoga mats, we are just launching and trying to gain a foothold in it.
Yoga is growing tremendously. I’m happy to say that we have now sold our mats to yogis in about 30 countries around the world. I just got an order from South Africa this week, from Brazil. We’re selling to Australia, New Zealand and Europe. It’s really growing nicely.
And the feedback, the testimonials that I get are just heartwarming. I invite anyone to go on our website or our Facebook page (you can navigate that from our website), and read some of the testimonials that we are getting from yogis who own our mat.
And I’m just speechless. The kind words that they’re saying about what this mat has done for their practice. It just makes me cry. We feel really good about that.
DEBRA: It’s so incongruous to do yoga on a plastic yoga mat.
KEVIN AYLWARD: I think so.
DEBRA: Yeah! I mean, yoga is so spiritual. It’s about connecting with your body and nature that to then put that smelly artificial thing there and have that be the base of a spiritual practice, this doesn’t make sense to me. So that’s one of the reasons why I think it’s so incredible that you’re doing this, because it’s so natural to the practice.
KEVIN AYLWARD: It’s traditional. It’s classic. And you’re right, the origin of yoga predates the advent of plastic.
DEBRA: Yes! They must’ve used something before a plastic mat.
KEVIN AYLWARD: Yeah! They did yoga on the ground. They did yoga on cotton and wool rug.
So, this is not a new idea that we’re doing. It’s a very, very old idea. This is a traditional idea. We’re trying to respect those traditions.
DEBRA: And I think you’re doing a great job. Sorry to cut you off, but the show’s going to be over in a few seconds. I just wanted to thank you so much for being here on the show and telling us what you’re doing. I think it’s fabulous.
KEVIN AYLWARD: Thank you very much.
DEBRA: You’re welcome. You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. And I’ll be back tomorrow!