My guest today is Koreen Brennan, sustainable living consultant, permaculture designer and educator. We’ll be talking about how anyone can apply basic Permaculture principles to create a toxic-free life. Permaculture is a regenerative design practice that works on the principles of natural law – by reflecting the efficient and prolific way that nature works, it is possible to create abundance for all living things within our own systems. Permaculture design provides a route by which people can create healthy self-reliance with home-grown, nutritious food, clean energy, and renewable, organic products. Koreen has taught permaculture at Tuskegee University, Gulf Coast University, Univ of Southern Florida, Miami, Los Angeles, Tampa, Pine Ridge Lakota reservation, Haiti, Cuba, and elsewhere. She is a popular speaker and has shared her knowledge of permaculture through hundreds of speeches and lectures. She has helped many people create healthy and easy to care for gardens in their yards, community spaces or small farms, and founded edible landscaping nurseries in Los Angeles, and in Clearwater, Florida. ww.growpermaculture.com
TOXIC FREE TALK RADIO
Designing Your Home, Garden and Life with Permaculture
Host: Debra Lynn Dadd
Guest: Koreen Brennan
Date of Broadcast: January 27, 2014
DEBRA: Hi, I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. This is Toxic Free Talk Radio where we talk about how to thrive in a toxic world. And I do this show because there are so many toxic things out in the world, but it’s not 100% toxic. There are so many things that we can do to remove toxic chemicals from our lives, from our workplaces, from our schools, from our bodies, from our homes—there are so many things.
And that’s why I do this every day, five days a week, at 12 noon, eastern, so that we can talk to people who have solutions about how you can have a toxic-free life.
It’s Monday, January 27, 2014, and I’m here in Clearwater, Florida, where it’s 70-degrees. It’s been cold here, and it’s going to be cold again. But it’s 70-degrees right now.
And today, we’re going to be thinking completely outside the box, or just talking outside the box of the industrial life that we live in, that is determined by our industrial processes and industry—industry, I guess, is a good word, because we’re going to be talking about permaculture, which is based in nature, and how nature works.
And so it’s a whole different way about thinking about things, and there’s nothing toxic about it. And by understanding these principles, we can apply them in our daily life, to have a less toxic life, and find out how to do things without using toxic chemicals.
My guest today is Koreen Brennan. She is a sustainable living consult, permaculture designer and educator. And she actually lives right down the street from me, I think. I actually haven’t been to her house, but I know she lives in Clearwater.
KOREEN BRENNAN: Hi. How are you?
DEBRA: I’m fine. How are you?
KOREEN BRENNAN: I’m good. It’s warm.
DEBRA: Do you live nearby me? You used to live nearby me, but I don’t know where you live now.
KOREEN BRENNAN: I think I don’t live too far actually.
DEBRA: Yes, I think so too.
Well, Happy Monday. Welcome to the show. So first, why don’t you tell us—let’s start out with your story about how you became interested in permaculture—how you found it, what made you interested in it, and why you decided to make it your life’s work.
KOREEN BRENNAN: Well, I’ve always been interested in the environment, nature, and gardening. And also, I’ve been interested in advocating for human rights and social justice issues. And I’ve worked in those areas, and I’ve felt like I was hitting up against a wall in a number of those areas. I felt like we can only get so far, and there were problems that we couldn’t really address.
When I first heard about permaculture, it seems to address a lot of these problems really simply, and really elegantly. I got very excited about it because it seemed to open up a door to a lot of situations that could be improved.
DEBRA: I’ve had other permaculturists on—Paul Wheaton and Diane Dirks. But we’ve always talked about specific subjects.
We haven’t talked about permaculture in general.
I know one of the things that we should just say right off the top is that there are three basic concepts that permaculture runs on, and those are care for the earth, care for people, and share the surplus. But beyond that, there are a lot of different principles. And it was developed in Australia by a man named Bill Mollison.
Why don’t you tell us a little bit about his experience—how did he come up with permaculture, and what it’s based on, and what are just some basic ideas?
KOREEN BRENNAN: Well, Bill is a really brilliant individual. I think he was looking for a solution to agriculture originally, and he was looking at—well, if really want to make something sustainable, what should we look at?
So he started thinking about indigenous people who have been growing food in the same areas for hundreds of thousands of years. And he decided to look at what they were doing.
Some of what they were doing is quite amazing. It’s a lost technology as far as—we’re concerned with our modern agriculture practices. He’s also a scientist. He’s got a science background. So he brought modern technology together with this ancient technology of people who have been living sustainably for many, many years and with no toxins as well.
And he put this practice together that is called permaculture.
DEBRA: I remember when I first heard about permaculture, I was—let’s see. How many years ago was this now? 15 or 20?
And I was living in the San Francisco Bay Area, and I met some other people, some people I know who were just learning about permaculture.
And I was actually one of the co-founders of the first permaculture group in the San Francisco Bay Area. My whole group came to my yard, and we applied as best we could different permaculture principles. And so this is something that I know something about.
And I don’t know as much as you know, Koreen, because you studied it much more than I do. But I think that we should say that what started from being an interest in agriculture has spread into other aspects of life.
So tell us about the extended version of permaculture.
KOREEN BRENNAN: You did some great stuff. You told me earlier about some of the things you’ve been doing. It’s really interesting. I hope you’ll talk a little bit about that.
DEBRA: I will.
KOREEN BRENNAN: Permanent agriculture became permaculture, and as the practice evolves and continues, some people started realizing that permanent agriculture—actually, the same principles applied to all of life, to all human existence and human structure.
So permaculture now is short for permanent culture. And it applies to the […] environment, to energy and technology, to education, to finance and to community. And these principles are based on natural law or how nature works. There’s a lot of observation that goes on in permaculture. It’s a really core part of it—let’s observe what our gardens are doing, and what’s the nature world is doing.
And let’s go with that energy, instead of fighting it, which is how a lot of our modern structures are set up. We really fight the natural energies that are freely given to us instead of working with them. And that’s one of the most exciting things about permaculture is to look into how these energies are operating, the beauty of it, and the abundance that’s created by the natural world, and to harness that or work within it, instead of trying to pound it into the ground or destroy it.
DEBRA: Well, give us just one example of that.
KOREEN BRENNAN: In my garden, which is a very practical example, I live in Florida, and we have sand for soil, and we have a lot of fungus and other problems here that people consider problems because it’s hard to grow tomatoes and lettuce here. They don’t naturally grow here.
So rather than grow tomatoes and lettuce in the summer time, which are likely to die, in Florida, I look for plants that love to grow in the summer time in Florida, and I’ll grow those. And instead of working hard to keep the plants alive, I just plant them and walk away, and we go out and harvest daily out of a truly abundant garden.
The plants are delicious. They are actually more nutritious than a lot of the plants we’re used to. And they taste very similar.
You can [inaudible 08:43]. It tastes like plants that we’re familiar with, or foods that we’re familiar with.
So that’s one example.
DEBRA: Some other examples would be things like using wind energy or solar energy where it’s just there. It’s already there.
Here in Florida, particularly, this is the environment Koreen and I are both familiar with, although we’ve both lived in other places.
But we get breezes coming in off the Gulf all the time, in the particular place where we live. And so that’s free and abundant. It can be used to power things, and why should we be digging up coal and petroleum out of the ground when we could be powering things with something that’s free and abundant?
And so that’s just one of the principles of permaculture that gets applied. And we’ll talk about more after this.
You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Derba Lynn Dadd, and my guest today is Koreen Brennan. We’re talking about permaculture.
DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and my guest today is Koreen Brennan. She’s a sustainable living consultant, permaculture designer and educator. Her website is GrowPermaculture.com.
And right on her homepage, she’s got this little video called “Permaculture Principle at Work.” She didn’t make this, but it’s on her website. And if you just click on that, it’s 7 minutes, 43 seconds, and it tells you all the basics of permaculture and shows you some permaculture design things.
One of the things that I want to say about permaculture is that it took me a long time to grasp what would be a simple definition of permaculture because it seems to encompass so many different things. And when I first started asking myself 30 years ago—well, if we were to live in harmony with nature, what would that look like?
I found that it really, in order to answer that question, you have to step outside of industrial, that there really is this big world of nature, and then the whole industrial world is a subset of that. And when you step out of this little subset, and you go out into this big world of nature, you find that there are laws that apply to all living things, including us human beings.
And it’s not like we’re separate from the rest of life, we are as much a part of life as a tree, or a bird, or any of those things.
And I found that I really not only needed to think differently, but I needed to have a whole different set of skills. For example, I prepare most of my food from fresh raw ingredients. I hardly buy anything that’s processed. And right now, I’m making chicken stock, but it’s so much better than canned chicken stock.
I bought two organic chickens. I roasted them. I ate part of it for dinner. I have chicken already cooked for the rest of the week.
And today, I’m taking all those bones, and I’m letting them simmer on the stove all day long.
Not only does it gives me chicken soup, but it gives me all these nutrients and minerals and all these health-giving properties that come from homemade chicken soup, not store-bought chicken soup.
And I would say that’s as much a part of permaculture as other parts of permaculture. Wouldn’t you agree with that? Do you agree with that?
KOREEN BRENNAN: I’m sorry?
DEBRA: Do you agree with the—
KOREEN BRENNAN: Oh, yes.
DEBRA: That learning how to prepare food is part of permaculture.
KOREEN BRENNAN: Yes. Permaculture is a very pleasurable way to live—using permaculture in your life. I do the same thing. I have fresh food in my garden. And when I go out and harvest it, it takes me less time than it takes me to go to the grocery store.
DEBRA: Yes, it does.
KOREEN BRENNAN: And I, again, watch the butterflies on the flowers, and the birds singing. It’s very beautiful.
One thing I also like about permaculture is we incorporate a lot of aesthetics into our designs. It really is a design methodology, and that’s important to understand. That’s one of the most exciting aspects to me. It really changed my worldview. I became a designer.
Before, I never thought of myself as a designer, but I really was. And I think we all are designers. We’re designing our lives, we’re designing the relationships, we’re designing our future. And we don’t always think about it.
Well, permaculture gives you some tools to think about how you want to design your life. And it gives you some tools to open doors that you might not have thought were open to you. One thing that we do is we use resources that are around us to improve our lives.
So when we design an improvement somewhere, we look at what is available that’s right in my environment that I could use.
DEBRA: I just love that principle. These concepts are so practical, and they’re so common sense. And they’re easy to remember. I learned that from school when I first learned about permaculture almost 20 years ago. And even now, today, it’s become part of me.
It’s not like I am sitting here saying, well, I need to do something, so let me go dig up a permaculture principle.
It’s that when I look—when I say I need this material, or I need to do this, first, I look around just right where I am. I don’t go look at the store. I don’t say, “I have to go to the store and buy something.”
I say, “Well, let me just look around and see what I can use that I already have in my environment.” And my environment includes—I have a very small lot where my house is. But I have a little backyard and a little front yard.
So it includes some natural resources but everything in your home is part of your environment. And so just as you might go look for some material out in nature, you might already have what it is you need right in your home—something that can be re-used in a different way or made into something else.
It’s just that principle of looking around you and seeing how close to where you are can you get what it is that you need.
KOREEN BRENNAN: And it’s a very creative process. It helps you really look at the world in a different way. And that way is a way of abundance.
DEBRA: It is.
KOREEN BRENNAN: It’s the best of all worlds in a lot of ways because you’re taking care of yourself, you’re healing the environment, you’re able to improve your community. It’s definitely a win/win type of process.
DEBRA: Well, we’re going to go to break in just a few seconds, but when we come back, I want us to talk about abundance because I really find that nature and permaculture because it’s working with nature as nature, is all about abundance. It’s all about doing things so that there continues to be regeneration, as opposed to our industrial culture, which is based on oil and fossil fuels, and on things that are in limited supply. Permaculture is based on unlimited supply.
So we’ll talk when come back a little bit about how permaculture does that. I think it’s a different way of thinking about it.
Actually, we do have a few more seconds than I thought we had. So let’s start talking about it, and then we’ll go to break. I’ll interrupt you.
KOREEN BRENNAN: When we design a system, we look for how we can heal it, and how we can make it even more abundant. And also, we think in terms of seven generations ahead. So how can we have a garden that’s going to feed us abundantly, but also, will feed our children, our grandchildren, and their grandchildren.
When you set up a system like that, it becomes much easier to care for because it regenerates itself.
DEBRA: And we’ll hear more about it after the break. You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and my guest today is Koreen Brennan. Her website is GrowPermaculture.com, and we’ll be right back.
I mentioned earlier that she has a little introductory video there that’s only seven minutes, and it will you all about the details if you want to learn more.
Koreen, so before the break, we were talking about abundance. I want you to tell us about food forests because I think that that is a great example of what we’re talking about.
KOREEN BRENNAN: Yes. In an urban area, we might call them edible forest gardens. And again, we’re working with nature instead of against her, and we’re looking at how does nature keep the forest going?
A forest is one of the most abundant systems and most efficient systems on the planet. It’s far more efficient than anything that humans have developed at this point. And so we look at how can we bring some of those elements into our yard, into our garden, and create a much more abundant situation than we might if we just had rows of lettuce sitting in our backyard.
So we’ll bring in layers of food instead of just a straight line row. We’ll bring in support plants—plants that support other plants.
There’s a plant called the nitrogen fixer, which will actually bring nitrogen from the air, which is like a protein for plants. It’s real necessary nutrient and fix it in the soil to make it available for other plants.
It’s really amazing how nature cooperates so much, and has plants helping each other, and different things in the system helping each other.
DEBRA: In permaculture, what you’re really doing is you’re building a system. You’re not just building a bed.
KOREEN BRENNAN: That’s right.
DEBRA: And one of the things that I think is so beautiful about the concept of food forest is that if you just go to a regular forest, that forest is growing food for everything that’s there. And the animals and the plants, the various plants, and you’ve got the earthworms and everything, at all levels, there’s a lot of food going on in a forest.
And then if you, as a human being, were to go into that forest, and you didn’t have the industrial structure, you could find all kinds of food in the forest. And you could just live off of that forest.
And so if instead of thinking about your backyard as raised beds and rows, and all those things, that if you thought of it as a forest—I actually live in a forest. My house is under some oak trees. And all levels from the ground, growing things on the ground, to having trees that are giving fruits or nuts, it’s everywhere it can be food.
And even using things like—I remember seeing video about food forests, and they were growing specific plants, so that they could then cut the branches and use the leaves in order to build the soil. And that every part of it was about growing something either to eat or to nourish the plants or to nourish the system.
And when I drive down the street and I see all these bags of trimmings that people have put in plastic bags to take them off to dump someplace, so that the garbage people come and pick them up, I just—because all of that greenery should be going back into your backyard to nourish your soil.
KOREEN BRENNAN: Yes. It really is a circular system. And animals play an important role in it as well. The animal waste feeds plants, the plants feed the animals. It’s really a wonderful mutual support system.
And we try to create that in our own way. We bring in birds, beneficial creatures into the system to help us maintain it.
I make lizard houses. I make sure there’s habitat for lizards in my yard because they eat the bugs that eat my plants. We have lizards all through our garden doing my work for me.
DEBRA: Isn’t there a food forest that has been producing food for 2000 years or something?
KOREEN BRENNAN: Yes, there’s one in Morocco that’s 2000 years old. There’s a pretty famous one in Vietnam that’s 300 years old, and the village depends on this forest for its food. And they know every tree in the jungle. They plant them, they choose what are the next trees that are going to grow once an older tree is starting to die.
So it is managed. This is the difference between a regular forest and a food forest or an edible forest garden is—is we do manage it.
In the city, I landscape, so I tend to make it very aesthetic. And I’ll think about those kinds of things as well when I’m designing a food forest.
DEBRA: One of the things that I like to do is go to botanical gardens. And they probably use a lot of pesticides, and it’s a way to manicure those things, but I like going and being in a beautiful garden setting. And I have space in my backyard.
I haven’t had time to do it all yet, to make it be the way I want it to be, but I could just see walking through my garden, and every place I look, I’m growing something that’s edible, or flowers to bring into the house.
I’ve done that kind of gardening before in California. For example, in my garden in California, I had a garden that was down on one level. I had a split-level house, so the garden was down, and then my deck was up about 15 feet.
And every year, we would plant heirloom tomatoes. And we would put fish heads. What else did we put? I don’t remember everything. I remember the fish heads though. But we just dig a hole and put the nutrients in it.
And then we plant these little seeds like you would get in a six-pack or something, these little plants. And by the end of the summer, these tomato plants were climbing up on our deck that’s 15-feet high, and they would just be climbing and curling around on the deck, and coming in the house.
They were just amazing. And we had all the tomatoes we could possibly eat. We only planted six plants.
And we also had—where I lived, I lived out in a rural village at the time, and there was one family that had these wonderful raspberry canes. And everybody ended up getting raspberry canes from this one family. And so you would go around from house to house, and you would see everybody had raspberry canes.
And they were fabulous, and they just bore fruit all summer long. But we all knew exactly where they came from because they came from this one family who was giving everybody raspberry canes.
And that’s abundance. That’s abundance. If everybody’s backyard was like that, we would have no food shortage at all.
KOREEN BRENNAN: Yes, and it’s beautiful. One thing about oak trees—there are a lot of oak trees in Clearwater. A lot of people have a lot of trees in their yard and they think they can’t grow anything because it’s too shady.
Well, there are some wonderful plants that grow in the shade. And again, that’s working with nature, and one of those is turmeric, for instance, which is such a healthy anti-oxidant, healing plant.
DEBRA: We need to go to break. We need to go to break, but we’ll hear more about this when we come back. You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and my guest today is Koreen Brennan, and we’re talking about permaculture.
And you can also listen to the archives 24/7. We’ve got all the shows, and lots of interesting people saying lots of interesting things. That’s ToxicFreeTalkRadio.com.
So I know one thing I wanted to talk about, Koreen. I wanted to talk about in particular one permaculture principle that I have found very, very useful, and that’s the idea of zones. Do you want to tell us about that?
KOREEN BRENNAN: I’m sorry. I didn’t hear the word?
DEBRA: Zones. Z-O-N-E-S. Zones.
KOREEN BRENNAN: I’m sorry. I’m really having a hard time hearing that word for some reason.
DEBRA: I’ll explain it then. So in permaculture, there is a principle called zones. And what it is, is about looking at how using space appropriately, depending on the distance it is from you, or from the distance it is from whatever the central item is.
And so for example, if you’re doing a garden, and you had a house in the middle or wherever it is located on your property, then you would draw circles around—if you were drawing a picture. You would make circles at various intervals out away from the house.
And you would put, for example, the herb garden next to the kitchen door because you could just then step outside and get your herbs, and put them in whatever it is you’re cooking.
And then further away, you would have gardens that you didn’t go to, or need to go to as frequently, but would still be close by because of harvesting. And then you might have the back 40, where you’re doing something that you don’t need to reach very often.
And I found that to be really important as I started gardening because I found that I didn’t want to walk all the way to the other side of the house in order to do something that I wanted to have things. And even in my house here in Florida, my entire edible garden part where I’m growing food, lettuce and things like that, it’s all on the side of my house that goes right outside the kitchen door, so that I don’t have to walk over to the other side.
And I actually have this wonderful south wall where I could be exfoliating trees, fruit trees or something on this wall. And yet, I don’t do it because it’s so far away from me to walk that I would need to, in order to apply this, I would need to put a door on that side of the house. And then that area would be accessible.
Not that I couldn’t walk all the way over there, but zones, they keep everything as close to you as possible.
And so I apply that inside my house too. In the kitchen, my knife is always right next to my cutting board. I don’t even put it in the drawer. I just leave it sitting on the cutting board, so whenever I want to chop something, my knife is right there.
And in my office, I actually intentionally said, “I’m going to use zones.” And I put on my desk only the things that I’m using immediately like pens, pencils and scissors. And I have a drawer next to my desk where I put things like my stapler and things because I’m not using a stapler as often as I use a pen, for example. But it’s right there when I need it.
And then storing the copy paper is way off on the other side of the house because it’s something that I don’t need to be using on an immediate basis.
And I just think that that’s just an example of one of the principles that’s so elegant and so applicable everywhere. It just is, that you just decide where is the central point.
Like I’m sitting at my desk, and it’s like, what do I need to have within arm’s reach, and what do I not need to have that I could get up and get it whenever I need it, like once a month or whatever. That once a month thing doesn’t belong on your desk. It belongs in a closet somewhere.
And when you start thinking about it in that way, it’s a wonderful way to organize all the stuff in your house.
KOREEN BRENNAN: Yes. So much of permaculture is so practical, and it’s common sense. Once you hear it, it’s, “Of course, I knew that.”
DEBRA: Yes, it’s so obvious. Everything about permaculture is like this. And that’s one of the things that I love.
KOREEN BRENNAN: One of the things I love about zones is the zone 5 which is the natural world. That’s a really special zone for permaculturists because that zone we leave alone. And in a small yard, it’s not really practical to have a wild area in your yard. But I usually try. I’ll have a little corner or something where I just let it go and let it do whatever it wants.
And that’s my classroom. That’s where I go to watch what nature is doing in my yard and my ecosystem. And I learn from nature. I learn what she likes, what she doesn’t like, what does well in that area. Sometimes I’ll plant seeds in it, in an area, and just let them go, especially when I’m in a new area.
And this is fun. People, sometimes they feel like they have to follow the rulebook and garden just like it says, and be successful the first year.
I don’t want to approach it that way. I will always have an experimental area where I’m throwing seeds in, and I learn from how they do—which ones do great, which ones struggle. And again, working with nature, and looking for what [inaudible 32:09].
DEBRA: Yes, exactly. Well, I think that having that zone 5 of just the natural world out there as a general life principle, I think it’s very important because then it puts you in a context, and that you’re able as a human being to say, “I do live in this ecosystem, and this part I get to be part of, and that part, I need to make sure continues to be there just in its wild state.”
And if that were a part of planning, community planning is where we can leave nature alone, instead of how we’re going to use all the possible space, our world would look entirely different. It’s just having that consideration, having that awareness that nature even exists at all, and that it has value, is something that I’m seeing is there’s more awareness of that, but there needs to be more.
Our world still runs on industrial assumptions. And those industrial assumptions are not the same assumptions as nature. And permaculture gives us a tool where we can design according to principles, how we live our lives, and how we organize things, and what we can do to create abundance.
And I just think that that’s an incredible, wonderful thing.
KOREEN BRENNAN: Yes. I love it when I get city planners, designers, and urban planners into my classes, and they have that planning background and the design background. And when they get these principles, it’s just a worldview, sometimes remarkably.
And that’s just exciting because they want solutions. They’re struggling. They’re hitting against walls at this point of running out of resources, and money, and et cetera. So permaculture is a solution for everybody. It can used on scales, in large projects or small projects.
I’m looking at my window right now, my leaves growing in my backyard. This is something I just wanted to mention. I leave my Spanish needles growing next to my house, and they’re full of bees right now and butterflies. They’re beautiful white daisy-like flowers, and there are very ubiquitous weeds in our area.
DEBRA: I have those in my yard too.
KOREEN BRENNAN: It’s also completely edible. And it’s a medicinal plant. It’s more nutritious than lettuce, and it’s really good. I cook it like a green. I put it in my salad. It has a little bit of bitterness as it gets old, bigger. But when you eat the young plants, they’re delicious.
And they respond well. You can mow them, and they’ll come right back up. And the bees just cover them. They’re just in heaven.
So I don’t always weed. I leave the lamb’s quarter in the garden and the amaranths. These plants have more nutrition than the stuff that you struggle to grow and you have to take care of so far. They love it. You don’t have to do anything to get them to grow abundantly.
DEBRA: That’s so wonderful. It just seems harmonious to me that life should just flow like that. And it’s just that in this culture, we don’t have the information and the background and the traditions to do that because everybody that has been born, who is alive today, hasn’t grown up with that. We were all taught to live in an industrial world.
And in order to not do that, we need to break out of it, and have more information to think of things in a different way.
And I know I came from that, so if I can change how I think, I think everybody can change how they think, and especially since it’s such a beautiful and harmonious way of thinking. And once you start applying it and seeing those results, it just is a wonderful thing.
KOREEN BRENNAN: That’s a really nice way of saying it. Very nicely. It really is. Most people are attracted once they realize what they’re missing, and what they forgot about. You want to be a part of nature. You feel good when you’re in the woods.
There’s energy there [inaudible 36:44].
There’s nothing more pleasurable than picking something fresh out of your yard and eating it. It’s got all of the life force, and all the enzymes, and all the really super healthy things in it that helps you detox and heal yourself.
DEBRA: Thank you so much for being on the show today, Koreen. We’re coming up to the end of our time. Again, her website is GrowPermaculture.com. and I think we’ve all learned a lot. Thanks for being with us.
KOREEN BRENNAN: Thank you, Debra. Thank you.
DEBRA: You’re welcome. You’re welcome. That’s it for our time. You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd, and you can go to ToxicFreeTalkRadio.com to find out more.