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deborah-brentonToday my guest is Deborah Brenton, owner of DIY Natural Bedding.  We’ll be talking about how you can make your own custom mattress with the materials she provides, and why you should. Deborah is a foodie, a forager, and strongly believes in living a natural life.  In 2010 she began looking for mattresses for her children, but the only type available contained a whole host of chemicals.  Her Do It Yourself attitude kicked in and she gathered resources to create her own mattresses from scratch.  She soon realized that other people share her natural living convictions but lack resources in the bedding market.  DIY Natural Bedding was started with this goal in mind: to provide affordable, natural and chemical free bedding products.  Deborah now offers natural components that customers can use to build their own mattresses, toppers and pillows.  Her products include wool from local farms, 100% natural latex, and GOTS certified organic fabric.  She also offers sewing patterns for those who would like to save a dime by sewing their own mattress ticking and custom latex cuts for any DIY furniture project.





Make Your Own Mattress

Host: Debra Lynn Dadd
Guest: Deborah Brenton

Date of Broadcast: February 24, 2015

DEBRA: Hi, I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. This is Toxic Free Talk Radio where we talk about how to thrive in a toxic world and live toxic free.

It’s Tuesday, February 24th, 2015. It’s February 24th already. This year is just going by so fast. It’s just so fast.

Anyway, we’re going to talk about beds and mattresses in particular and how you can make your own. I know that seems like maybe an impossible idea, but mattresses are such – they’re so important because we spend a third of our lives lying on a mattress.

If you have a toxic mattress, you’re going to be exposed to all those toxic chemicals while you sleep every night. They can really affect your health. So many, many people have been realizing how toxic regular mattresses are and looking for natural mattresses.

So when I first was starting looking for a natural mattress 30 years ago, there was no such thing. There were futons, very thin little futons. I managed to find a used mattress that was made out of not all the toxic things, but not natural either. It was in the back of a mattress store. Somebody had brought it in as a trade. And I said, “I’ll take that one.”

But I’ll tell you when I first started considering that I needed to get rid of my toxic mattress, the first thing that I slept on was – I went and got a roll-away bed that had a little pot that has springs on it. And then I piled up cotton thermal blankets on top to make it a little softer.

I rolled up a cotton towel and put it in a pillow case, and that was my pillow because I was not going to sleep on my toxic mattress anymore. I couldn’t just go down to the store like you can today and buy a non-toxic mattress or a natural mattress.

So what we’re going to talk about today though is the fact that you can make your own mattress, how you can do that and where you can get materials.

I know that some people are very sensitive to various different materials. And it’s difficult even to get a natural mattress that some people can tolerate.

So there’s no reason why you can’t make your own mattress, why you can’t choose the materials that you want and either put it together yourself or have somebody make it for you. So this gives you the greatest freedom of choice in terms of have a mattress. You get complete control over it.

So my guest today is Deborah Brenton. She is the owner of DIY Natural Bedding. We’re going to find out how she came to come up with such ideas making your own mattress and having a business around it. She’s going to tell us all about it.

Hi, Deborah.


DEBRA: I should call you Deborah to distinguish you from me who is Debra.

DEBORAH BRENTON: Yes. And my middle name is Lynn as well.

DEBRA: Really?

DEBORAH BRENTON: So I grew up as a DLD as well. My maiden name was a D. So I resonate with those initials.

DEBRA: And I have a friend, a man who is a friend, his initials are DD also. So when we initial things back and forth to each other in e-mails, it’s always DD and DD.

Anyway, it’s good. So how did you get interested in the idea of making your own natural bed?

DEBORAH BRENTON: Sure. We started with our family and our kids. We had two young daughters at the time and said, “Well, we get a chance to buy a new mattress.” We want to move them up into a bunk bed and mattress-buying purchases don’t come around all that often, “so let’s do this right.”

We didn’t know what right meant at the time, but we started researching. And we started looking around and looking at why people chose organic mattresses because they didn’t want to have some of the flame retardants that companies put in commercial mattresses.

So as we were looking at organic mattresses, we realized they were completely out of our price range. As most young family starting out, it’s difficult to make the choices you really want.

So we said, “Well, I can make anything in the kitchen. Surely, I can try my hand in other areas of our home.” So we said, “Let’s make our own.”

And we found some. At the time, there were available cotton futon cases and some wool bedding and some natural latex. We put that together. It was very easy to put together, to just zip everything in there.

We said, “This idea is really good. Maybe other people need this idea. We can’t be the only people out there who want to make these natural choices, but can’t afford it. What if we could enable people to have these natural choices at wholesale rates or upholstery rates? To do-it-yourself could save them a dime or two.”

DEBRA: Right. I think it’s just wonderful that you’ve done this.

So how did you start – I’m always interested in the aspect of you doing something unusual as a business. How did you get going doing that?

I’m hoping that other people will take the initiative to start businesses that fill in the gaps of things that are needed and not yet on the market.

DEBORAH BRENTON: We started very small. We had just refinanced our house. So we started with the one mortgage payment that we didn’t have to pay. That funded the first purchase of six inches of natural latex.

We worked out of our home to invite people to know us, to trust us, to suggest to them that we trust them to make their decisions as well. And part of that model has also enabled us to keep prices down or to keep our cost down by working in our space. We dedicate it to things that we show.

So lots of phone calls, lots of reading online. If you’ve never been on the Mattress Underground, I highly recommend that site for research.

DEBRA: Oh no, I actually haven’t been on that site. Okay.

DEBORAH BRENTON: Yes. It’s just a forum that runs, but the leader of the forum is pretty knowledgeable. It’s a good place to start.

DEBRA: Good. I’ll check that out. So you’ve done a lot of research. Tell us about some of the toxic things.

I know I just spoke in general at the beginning. But what are some of the toxic chemicals that people should really – they haven’t already decided that they need a natural mattress. Why should they be using a natural mattress?

DEBORAH BRENTON: Okay. So with this question, we could just start with the burn test, right?


DEBORAH BRENTON: So the story goes. Interrupt me if this gets too long, but the story goes that back in the 70s, everyone was lighting up lots of cigarettes in the house, in the bed and mattress. Fires were increasing.

The government said, “There are too many cigarettes. Big cigarettes need to make the cigarettes safe so that people don’t keep burning themselves down.

They said, “Well, let’s do something else.” All the big tobacco companies got together and formed their alliance and lobbied for burn test.

Now, all upholstery and furniture and bedding are required to pass a flame test. Two tests, cigarette test where they put a cigarette under a sheet and see how fast your product burns. And another test is the burn test where there’s an open torch on the top and the sides of the mattress. They see how fast it burns, how quickly the flame extinguishes, how much smoke it produces, things like that.

So because of those laws that were in place long ago, companies put things on their mattresses, be it directly putting, spraying the mattresses with chemicals or be it using a barrier fabric that is made of synthetics to pass the burn test.

So when we say you can buy everything in parts that have not been treated with any chemicals, what we mean is that we are selling you a part of a mattress. We’re not selling you a whole mattress. We are selling you just part of it. If you choose to assemble it that way, great.

That does mean that we don’t put any of the bromines, and we don’t put any chlorinated Tris. We don’t put any PBDE. We don’t put in Firemaster 550, no boric acid. We don’t put any of the bromines. The list keeps going because a lot of these flame retardants that are put into upholstery and bedding are proprietary. So we can’t really know all of them.

DEBRA: Yes. It’s just brilliant that you’re doing it that way.

We need to go to break. When we come back, we’ll talk more about natural mattresses and unnatural things that are in regular mattresses, not the natural mattresses. This is so interesting.

You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. My guest today is Deborah Brenton. She’s the owner of DIY Natural Bedding. The website is

We’ll be right back.



DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. My guest today is Deborah Brenton, owner of DIY Natural Bedding. That’s at

So Deborah, if somebody is considering making their own bed, what should they consider as to whether or not they can do it or not?

What are the kinds of skills you need to have? Let’s start with that question.

DEBORAH BRENTON: Sure. Well, you’d be surprised of how simple it is. You need to pick out. You make a few choices. And then you need to zip them all together.

So the first choice you make is what you want to put in. We call the cases ticking. You unzip them. You can have one foot wool in it. You can have one foot of puddle pad on top. You can have just organic, get the organic cotton one. You can…

DEBRA: So you’re not just selling – I went to your website, but I guess I missed this point. You’re not selling fabric to make a mattress. You’re selling the case.

DEBORAH BRENTON: We are selling both.

DEBRA: Okay.

DEBORAH BRENTON: If you want to sew your own case, we have the pattern available. We have the zipper. Where can you find 300 inches of zipper in one piece?

We sell all our mattress quality fabrics by the yard so that you can make your own. If those are your skills, go for it. If you want us to sew it, we will sew it. We won’t assemble it, but we will sew that for you.

And then we saw the natural latex labs. We get all our wools from local farms around us where I can ask the farmers questions about how they treat their animals, what they feed them, where they graze and how they treat them when they have illnesses. So we like to support the local food movement that way, as well as to give our customers quality wool.

DEBRA: So then, you sell all the materials. So the very simplest thing to do would be to buy the case and buy the stuffing and have it arrive at your doorstep. And then you can stuff it with whatever it is you want. You stuff it yourself and that’s it.

DEBORAH BRENTON: Yes. Put the ticking on your mattress. Lay your latex labs on top of it. Zip it shut, and you just made a mattress.

DEBRA: Wow. That’s so easy.

DEBORAH BRENTON: Yeah. Those are great.

DEBRA: Yeah. I didn’t realize. When I looked at your website, I was thinking, “Okay. So here’s the fabric, and here’s the zipper. You can sew it up.”

You probably provide the thread too because it needs a special kind of thread. And then, you would do all that work. But no, you just zip it up.

DEBORAH BRENTON: Well, you can. Some people have those skills that not everyone does.

DEBRA: Not everybody does.

DEBORAH BRENTON: We put the DIY to the ones who can do it.

DEBRA: Yeah. I wouldn’t want to sew. I mean I can sew rudimentarily. I can’t say that word.

But wow, that is extremely appealing to me. If I didn’t already have a wonderful mattress that I love, I would immediately order from you because that’s so easy and so affordable.

DEBORAH BRENTON: Yeah. And our wool mattress is neat. I shouldn’t say “our wool mattress.” We sell wool beddings, as well as what we call wool flakes.

So before the wool is aligned into the nice sheet, that cotton bedding, it’s in this fluff. And you can make a wool mattress by taking one of the ticking and some of the beddings on the bottom.

Throw in the wool flake in the middle because that’s the less expensive process. It hasn’t been combed yet. And then top it off with another smooth wool bedding and zip that shut. Then you pretty much made your own wool mattress. Then you’d have to tuft it.

There’s more than one way to use the supplies.

DEBRA: Well, it’s good. Why don’t you go over what the different materials are? We’re going to need to go to break, but you can just start with this question.

I was really impressed at how careful you were about choosing your materials. I’m aware of a lot of different mattress makers. Some of them are more or less stringent about the materials that they choose to make their mattresses even if they’re natural. But you have very, very excellent materials.

Of course, somebody could also buy your case and put whatever materials they want to buy from some place else in there as well. If they have their own local wool that they want to use, it’s all very – you buy whatever pieces you want, and then you do whatever you want with them. It’s just amazing to me.

So tell us. So you have three basic things. Start by telling us more about your role because you don’t sell cotton, but you sell wool.

DEBORAH BRENTON: You’re right. We chose wool to sell over cotton because it’s so resilient. Cotton can only bend so many times before it breaks. It gets very firm.

Wool is an interesting fiber. Microscopically, it’s a hollow fiber and it is spiral-shaped.

Its hollow shape is interesting because that where its leaking moisture comes in. It can absorb your body heat, your body moisture while you sleep. Then as you roll over, it now can let it dissipate into the air.

If you sleep under the wool, you will like it as a comforter or you will like a wool jacket. That hollow fiber can keep your heat next to you, thus providing your insulation.

Its spiral shape is really interesting because that makes it very flexible. As you compress it when you sit on it or lie on it, it doesn’t just bend causing a break in the fiber eventually. It just stretches. It can do that for a long, long time. So grandmother’s wool mattress can still be re-fluffed and reused because wool is so strong.

DEBRA: Yes. That’s been my experience. When I first started sleeping with natural beds, they actually were not wool beds. Nobody was doing wool beds.

I started with a pretty thick cotton futon on the floor. It was the most uncomfortable thing I’ve ever slept on in my life. It was a cotton futon on a wood floor.

I think they’re designed to put on tatami mats or something I think in Japan, which are not as hard as wood. So here you have this Japanese technology coming over here to America. I put it on wood floor. It was horrible, very uncomfortable.

When the first wool beds came out, I got a wool mattress that was very thick, 10 inches thick. It was comfortable, but I couldn’t lift it.

And now, I have layers of wool mattresses on a wood slab bed. That seems to be the best thing to do as well.

We need to go to a break. When we come back, we’ll talk more about the materials that are available to make mattresses from. And you can make your own mattress.

You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. My guest today is Deborah Brenton from DIY Natural Bedding. That’s at

We’ll be right back.



DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. My guest today is Deborah Brenton, owner of DIY Natural Bedding. That’s at

Deborah, I want us to keep talking about wool. Especially, you talked about the difference between farm wool and organic wool. I’d like you to talk about that because you say some very important things on your website about this.

By the way listeners, she’s got a lot of information on her website about the materials, far more than we can cover talking about it today.

Deborah, tell us about farm wool.

DEBORAH BRENTON: Sure. Let’s see. Farm wool.

When I pick my wool, I go around the farms in my area. I talk to the farmers and I ask them, “What nutrition do you give your sheep? Are they allowed outside in the sun? How are they’re treated when they’re sheared? Am I going to be finding an excess air in my wool because the shear was too quick when shearing it? Do you gather the Merino wool?”

That means that I should be on the look-out from using. Really, I just want wool that the farmer cares about the animal. So he gives them natural food, grasses, hays.

When they need deworming, do they give them diatomaceous earth instead of popping some other pills? What goes into the sheep affects what comes out of the sheep. The quality of the wool is affected by that.

We get our wool from all sources of different sheep. They’re all nice wool. These farmers do not grow short hair coarse wool crops. They grow wool that is nice enough to be spun into yarn. The wool is tossed. The fibers are long. There’s a variety of colors. There’s white, brown, black and grey.

It feels good. And it also has that satisfaction of knowing that this animal was cared for, maybe not quite like a pet. But yet, it was still very thoughtfully cared for and not just raised for money.

DEBRA: The thing that I so love about this is your personal connection with it. So often – on your website, you talk about that organic certification is useful when I can’t certify the farmer myself.

I wish you would just put that sentence in bold and have flashing lights all around it. I think that that’s so important.

The difference between you being there actually going to the farm, meeting the people who are growing the wools, seeing the sheep. The difference between that and looking – I’m not saying this certification is bad, but this is just a different level. It’s a different level of knowing that you went yourself and looked and that you didn’t rely on a piece of paper that’s certified.

Again, I’m not saying that certification is a really bad thing. They’re very useful for knowing that a product needs a certain standard. But it’s just that there’s something different about you going and checking it out.

I read all of these on your website. And I see and I listened to you, talking to me today. I see that you’ve done your homework. You know what you’re talking about. You know what questions to ask. You going and checking out the farmer is just as good as if that farmer had an organic certification if not better.

The questions have been asked. The farmers are doing the right thing. And you’re right there with your own eyes seeing that they’re doing the right thing. That all comes across to me.

My wool is actually from a similar situation where I bought my bed from Shepherd’s Dream in California. I’ve known Shepherd’s Dream for more than 20 years, from when they were first selling futon patterns like you. That’s how they started.

When they started their organic wool certification, I actually went with them. They talked to the farmers, and I sat with them – they have organic certification – in terms of what they thought that it should be.

So I know exactly where the wool comes from in my bed. It’s actually so nice for me every night to be thinking about those sheep. I know how they were cared for. I know where they’re from. It’s just a lovely thing. It’s just a lovely thing to have that level of knowing what your ingredients are.

DEBORAH BRENTON: Yeah. In fact, the mill that provides them with all their wools provides much of the US with their wool. But they also provide our puddle pads from the sheep. So everyone knows where it’s come from.

DEBRA: Yeah. It’s a lovely way to make a product. It’s a lovely way to do this.

I’m going to look at the clock for a second. Okay. So tell us about latex. Tell us about latex in general and your latex.

DEBORAH BRENTON: Okay. So we work with natural latex. That means that it is a foam made from rubber or from latex.

Latex is – you see it everywhere. You go outside. You pick a dandelion, and you see the white stuff and you see latex. You see lettuce and you break it open, you’ll see latex [inaudible 00:32:50].

It’s just that those small plants are not generally commercially viable. There are different small amount of latex.

So the latex for Robert today is growing in the jungles where there is a particular tree, the Hevea brasiliensis. It’s a tall. It now had become known as the rubber tree.

There are ways to make synthetic rubber out of petroleum. That’s not the type of latex that we provide because we prefer to stick with as natural as we can.

So the foam that’s made from these rubber trees that we use ends up being 96% rubber and then 4% foaming agents. For a manmade product, I think that’s pretty good.

So natural latex, we have it inside of different densities. That means you can pick your firmness or you can combine firmness to create a pillow top layer or something firmer. Or you can put a soft layer underneath a firm layer to create a more contemporary spring-like feel.

But the five densities really give you a lot to work with. It lets you choose your height. It lets you choose how you feel. And natural latex is neat through the way it absorbs your pressure point.

So you lie on the mattress and your pressure points are where the deepest parts of your body. They create the most pressure. And because of the compression modules, the latex actually compresses underneath you to some extent.

It doesn’t spread out like if you were lying out on a water bed, the water would just go to your edges. But here, it actually creates the support underneath you. So it’s able to move completely out of the way where it needs to and then just keeps a fast response time up for the areas that don’t need to be pressured.

And this latex, it’s not like a memory foam. So we call it a fast response foam. So you roll over and the latex is ready to support you in a new spot.

You don’t have to crawl out of a valley that you’ve made because it’s not heat-sensitive foam. It doesn’t hold your heat and harbor it like a memory foam mattress would. So it’s a very different sort of foam.

DEBRA: Yeah. Good. So there is also – explain about the difference between Talalay and Dunlop.

DEBORAH BRENTON: Okay. So there are two processes or you could say there’s one process and a variation of it. The Dunlop process is the…

DEBRA: I’m sorry. I have to go to break really quickly I think. I get to talking.

You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. We’ll be right back.



DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. Today, my guest is Deborah Brenton, owner of DIY Natural Bedding. That’s

Before the break, we were talking about latex. Deborah, I like you to tell us about the difference between organic latex and natural latex.

DEBORAH BRENTON: Okay. The differences are very few. The differences are a label pretty much. The formula seems to be the same with the manufacturers. The product is the same. The plants are similar.

The difference would be that you have someone certifying that the company has been a responsible company in the way that they produced, that their water outflow has been reasonable, that they have treated their workers reasonably that they have been paid their wages and not required to work too much.

From what I hear, it’s likened to any papers. A dog of a true pure breed at papers is financially worth more money than the same dog without papers.

It produces primarily the same product. So we choose to go with natural latex because if the product is still 96% rubber – I mean you can’t get any less rubber than that, any more rubber than that and creates a foam. It still has to be light and airy.

Then why not choose just plain old natural? Why require an extra process that will take up more financial commitment on the company? Why not just give people what is readily available that is good enough?

DEBRA: Good. That’s a very good answer. So then, the other key part of what you offer in terms of materials is the fabrics.

Now, you’re selling GOTS-certified organic fabrics. So tell us why you made that choice and what that is.

DEBORAH BRENTON: Sure. There are few different standards out there for organic fabric, organic textiles. Most of them just require that the majority of the cotton used in the product have been growing organically. So 51% of the cotton could be growing organically.

The GOTS standard takes it away above that. Now, it says that not only the growing procedures have to be organic, the warehouse has to be certified organic, the processes used on the fabric, the dyes, the finishing, the weaving. Everything has to be certified.

India produces 60% of the world’s cotton. And ours is not – I mean I can’t just go over there. I can’t go over there and say, “Well, is there a pesticide running off in your crops?”

So I do rely on a certification in this point because I know that the certification requires the manufacturers to say that their product is only 95% organic.

Or is it like our cotton? Is it actually 100% organic and 100% cotton? The law technically says you can say it’s organic cotton even if it’s just the majority cotton. So it could be 49% rayon or something else.

So I like that the GOTS is clear. I like that I can talk to my suppliers and I can physically ask them questions. If I wanted to, I can actually trace where the cotton came from, what farm it was growing on, [inaudible 00:43:58] standards that it matches every ball of fabric with the grower.

DEBRA: I’m looking at your fabrics. One of the important reasons why it’s necessary for you to exist as a bedding supply place is that here you’ve got organic cotton for [inaudible 00:44:19] fabric that is 97 inches wide.


DEBRA: And first of all, you’re not going to go into any fabric store that I know of and find any GOTS organic fiber.

But secondly, even if you found GOTS organic fiber – and the only other place I know of where people can order GOTS fibers to do things themselves with it is from France.

So here you are in America, you’ve got GOTS organic fibers. It’s 97 inches wide, which is what you need in order to make a mattress.

I can’t imagine putting together a better collection of materials to make a bed out of. You’ve done a really good job.

DEBORAH BRENTON: Thank you. Yeah, we have to be very careful, like you said, about sourcing it. Just provide people with choices that we’d want to make ourselves.

DEBRA: So earlier, you were talking about – at the beginning of the show, you were talking about price. The price ends up being less than if you were to buy a mattress.

Of course, when you’re purchasing a mattress that somebody else has made, you’re paying for labor. Whereas when you make it yourself, then you put in the cost of labor as your time.

But also I think it’s most important for a lot of people listening not so much how much it costs, although I’m sure a lot of people are on a budget and want to get the most affordable mattress they can. The most important thing is to have these fantastic materials that are so organic and not toxic.

I forgot what I was going to ask. So does it end up – I guess the point I want to make is that people think that organic and certified and all those things are much more expensive.

If you’re going this route of doing it yourself, does buying all the mattress pieces and putting them together – does it end up costing more or less than an average toxic mattress?

DEBORAH BRENTON: I would say definitely it costs less. The DIY component is pretty big. It saves us a lot of costs, but we pass on the savings to the customers. So yeah, there’s a lot.

If you went on and bought the king size natural latex mattress – let’s say it was just a nine inch mattress. It would be surprising for you to pay $2500 for that.

Use our parts. Make your own. And you’re probably looking more like – depending on your choices of course – $1500, $1700. So that’s at least a 30% saving there.

DEBRA: That’s a big difference.

DEBORAH BRENTON: Yeah, it is. I think it’s rewarding. I don’t think people can put a monetary value on the value of participating in your choices. I mean you’ve spent time, you’ve spent energy.

If you’ve found us, you have invested yourself into this purchase and then to actually assemble it. I mean that is rewarding to say, “I am sleeping on something that I have chosen.”

DEBRA: Yeah, I know. My husband and I – many years ago, we made shaker chairs, four shaker chairs for our dining table out of a kit. And we love the seats together.

And it’s just so – even to this day, I look at those chairs, and I remember the experience of making them when I sit on them and the love that goes in it. It’s so different to have something that you’ve made with your own hands.


DEBRA: Yeah. I could just now imagine a couple making a mattress for themselves and how beautiful that would be. Gee, this is so lovely.

DEBORAH BRENTON: Yeah. It’s good to take your own space into your will.

DEBRA: Yeah. What a lovely thing that you’re doing.

We only just have about a minute left. So is there anything you’d like to say that we haven’t covered?

DEBORAH BRENTON: Well, I don’t know. We are a small business. That means that while we may not have certain systems in place that a large business might have, we do have a lot of personality here.

So you call. You will talk to me. You e-mail, you get me. We have showrooms that we set up in people’s homes. I have one in Minneapolis and one here in Lafayette, Indiana.

You come and you get to talk to us. We will answer any question we can. If we can’t, we will find you the answer.

So that’s one of the benefits of being a small business. We aren’t so far distant from you. We’re still people too and we can work with you.

DEBRA: You know the answers. One of the things that happens today is that you go into a big box store, and you got people who are cashiers and they know nothing about the product.

And dealing with a business like you, you’re an expert, you absolutely know your product and everything that goes in it, all the way down to the shape.

Anyway, thank you so much Deborah for being on the show. Again, the website is

I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. This is Toxic Free Talk Radio. You can go to to learn more about other shows, listen to this one again, read the transcript.

That’s it for today. Be well.



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