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Today my guest is Karlin Warner, the Textile Certification Specialist for OneCert, Inc., an organic certification company in Lincoln, Nebraska. We’ll be talking about the GOTS certification program for organic textiles, so we can all understand what the standard is and how it is certified when we see the certification seal on a label. Karlin received her B.S. in 2007 and M.S. in 2009 from the University of Nebraska-Lincoln in Textile Science, with a minor in Chemistry. While working on her thesis project, testing an eco-friendly wrinkle resistant finish for silk, she found she had a fascination with the more sustainable side of the textile industry. Starting at OneCert while finishing her degree, Karlin has now worked to certify organic textiles for nearly six years. Her work at OneCert includes reviewing and inspecting applicants to the increasingly popular Global Organic Textile Standards (GOTS), as well as Textile Exchange’s Organic Content Standards (OCS). She likes to travel to work by bike, but also enjoys running, reading, travelling and spending time with her husband and two dogs.




“How Your Body Tells You it has Toxic Overload”

Host: Debra Lynn Dadd
GUEST: Karlin Warner

DATE OF BROADCAST: October 15, 2014

DEBRA: Hi, I’m Debra Lynn Dadd and this is Toxic Free Talk Radio where we talk about how to thrive in a toxic world and live toxic free. It’s Wednesday, October 15th 2014. The sun is shining in beautiful Clearwater, Florida, beautiful autumn day. My guest today is a textile certification specialist who certifies textiles and textile products. She’ll tell us.

What she does is she works with the Global Organic Textile Standard as a certifier. You may have seen the seal on some products or textiles and she’s the one that makes sure it’s organic. So we’re going to learn today about what a certifier does, what makes it organic and anything else she wants to tell us about the certification program.

Her name Karlin Warner and she’s the textile certification specialist for One Cert Incorporated, an organic certification company in Lincoln, Nebraska. Hi, Karlin.

KARLIN WARNER: Hi! Thanks for having me.

DEBRA: Thank you for being on. And I do want to say that I think that your photo – and listeners, if you haven’t seen her photo, if you haven’t been, her photo is lovely. I had to make it small so you can’t see all of it. She’s got a beautiful textile wrapped around her neck. Her photo just really embodies what she does. Good job, Karlin.

KARLIN WARNER: It was actually a gift from a friend. It was blessed I think because of my love for organic cotton. And so it’s an organic cotton scarf and it’s like all natural colors. I love it!

DEBRA: I love it too! I love it too! I just looked at it and went, “That’s beautiful.” Anyway, first of all, tell us all about the Global Organic Textile Standard. Listeners, it’s called GOTS for short. So if you ever hear anybody say GOTS or if you see that in print, it’s the Global Organic Textile Standard. Tell us about that.

KARLIN WARNER: Sure. I guess in a nutshell, the Global Organic Textile Standard – again, GOTS. That’s probably what I’ll call it the rest of the segment is an organic standard that include some other criteria.

It’s not only facing the organic content of a product from these stuff in the supply chain, but it also includes some criteria regarding the toxicity of chemicals that are used. It also includes social criteria. So it’s almost a little bit of a fair trade type of standard that’s included into that. It includes environmental and waste products [inaudible 00:03:53] as well.

It’s interesting that it’s called a ‘global standard’ because it’s used globally, but it’s also all-encompassing. It includes a lot of different pieces to make a really good quality product.

DEBRA: There’s other questions I want to ask you, but I just want to jump in with this one and ask isn’t it difficult to be evaluating all those different things?

I know for myself, I understand the different things that you’ve just described, the environmental effects and fair trade and everything. And as a consumer advocate, there’s a point in my life where I said, “Well, I need to consider all these things, but it’s just too difficult for me to evaluate products and have” – at least at that time, I think things have changed. It was just too difficult to say, “Well, something has to be non-toxic and fair trade and environment and recycled” and whatever it happened to be. I ended up with nothing to qualify for all those things.

I think the situation has changed now because this is about 15 years ago I was trying to do this. But I finally decided I’m just going to take one thing. I’m just going to look at toxics and make sure that people can identify what’s toxic and then if they want to look at those other aspects or I should say, what’s toxic free. And if they wanted then to look at those other aspects, they can. But for me, I think that toxicity is the important thing.

Do you really find in your work that you can evaluate all those things and find products obviously that meet all those standards?

KARLIN WARNER: I do think it’s possible. It definitely has been a learning curve me. I came to this with a textile background, so I had to learn a lot about how to evaluate the social criteria and other aspects.

I think if you didn’t have a standard that you’re evaluating something to, it would be really difficult to, like you’ve mentioned, know that it’s not toxic and that it’s fair trade and that it’s organic. It gets complicated to keep track of all of those pieces. But having one standard that has all the criteria does make it a little bit easier.

DEBRA: Yes, I think that people knew that about the GOTS standard, that it encompass all those things, then they could say, “Oh! Well, now this is covered. If I see that seal, I know that it’s non-toxic, that it has environmental benefits, it’s fair trade. That’s encompassed in the standard.

So how did you get interested personally in being a certifier?

KARLIN WARNER: Well, like I mentioned, I went to school for textile. My degree is in textile science so it was a lot more on the chemistry and textile testing side of the textile industries.

And while I was finishing my master’s degree, I was working on a thesis project for a more eco-friendly and less toxic wrinkle-free finish for silk. So it was a finish that was primarily using the citric acid the active ingredient rather than formaldehyde.
And so doing the research for that project really got me thinking about what other things could we be doing differently if you want less toxic and if you want to make less of an impact to the environment.

And so through like an email list or something, I got asked if I was interested in helping OneCert get their organic textiles program started and rolling because they were just starting to grow it out of that point.

So I started part-time while I was working on my degree. And then it’s pretty much history from there. I just found that I really liked it. I kind of just went with it.

DEBRA: Well, sometimes those things just appear in life, those right things. While you were talking, I was thinking that consumers, that your job in a way, you’re a certifier, your job is to say, “This product, it meets this standard.”

But as consumers, we kind of go through the same process in terms of saying, “Well, we want something that’s, say, toxic-free.” Then we have to be able to have our own standard and say this product doesn’t have this and this and this in it.” And so in a sense, we’re all certifiers. We’re certifying to ourselves and that for everybody, there needs to be a standard.

So tell us something about the Global Organic Textile Standard specifically about toxics. What are they looking for?

KARLIN WARNER: Sure! I guess the most specific part about toxic in the Global Organic Textile Standard is the prohibited and restricted input. So within the standard, there is a list of chemical ingredients that cannot be used in processing of these organic textiles.

So, for example, I already mentioned formaldehyde and that’s one of them, and genetically-modified organisms should not be used and heavy metals, plasticizers like phthalate (that’s been in the news a lot lately). There’s a whole list of these things that cannot be used.

So that’s one part of it. GOTS prohibits these chemicals specifically. And then those that aren’t explicitly listed also have to be evaluated according to some additional studies. [Inaudible 00:09:56] additional criteria mostly relating to aquatic toxicity and oral toxicity and biodegradability.

DEBRA: So what you’re doing is that you’re looking to make sure that a product does not contain the prohibited list. But then there might be some other chemicals. And so if other chemicals are being used, you need to evaluate their toxicity?

KARLIN WARNER: Yes, yes. So even if it’s something that’s not on the prohibited list, it still has to meet these other criteria.

DEBRA: Yeah. Yeah, you know that’s very similar to what I do as a consumer advocate, but I’m not a certifier like you are. We need to go to break, but we’ll talk more about this when we come back.

You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd and my guest today is Karlin Warner, textile certification specialist for OneCert in Lincoln, Nebraska. We’ll be right back.


You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd and my guest today is Karlin Warner. She’s a textile certification specialist for OneCert, an organic certification company in Lincoln, Nebraska.

So Karlin, actually, we’re having some static on the line. Can you say something just as a little test? Can you speak up a little louder than you’ve been speaking and we can get rid of that static?

KARLIN WARNER: Sure, I can speak up a little bit more.

DEBRA: Oh, great! That’s perfect. Okay. So now, when you are going through the process of certifying, tell us what do you get to do as a certifier because I know that as a consumer advocate, I’m pretty much limited to what the advertising is about a product and what are the listed ingredients. What are the selling points and things like that?

I’ll go to a website and it has information, but it’s not necessarily the whole story. And a lot of times, when I ask questions, manufacturers are reluctant to give me information.

But as a certifier, you need to be able to see everything that’s going on I’m assuming so that you can make your evaluation. Is that right?

KARLIN WARNER: Yes, that’s correct. Actually, anybody that’s applying for certification with us has to agree to share any information with us. So they submit to us a plan of how they are going to meet the organic standard. And then we evaluate that plan through the criteria to see how well it meets it and see if there’s anything that they need to change.

We also do an on-site inspection and I think that’s where a lot of the important things really happen because then we get to see really behind the scenes how things are actually being done and if it matches what they say is doing, we can see what inputs are actually being used and we can see their record-keeping and see how well things are documented as far as traceability. We want to know that the organic material they say they’re using is actually being used in that product. And same thing with the chemicals and the [inaudible 00:16:09].

DEBRA: This is so interesting. Can you just give us more details like a walk through in those descriptions? You don’t have to tell us what the product is you’re describing, but just so that listeners can get a real idea?

KARLIN WARNER: You mean a walkthrough of the inspection process?

DEBRA: Just give us more details of what you’d do if somebody came to you and said, “I want to get a certification.” The first thing that you will do is…


DEBRA: Just part of what you’ve just said, but more detail. So what it’s like? When you go through the inspection process, what are the kinds of things you’re looking for? What do you see? I just want us to all have more reality on when somebody sees that it says it’s ‘certified organic’, what does that actually mean?

KARLIN WARNER: Okay, absolutely. So if it’s certified organic, that means that it has been evaluated by a third party. So it’s one thing if the manufacturer says, “This is organic,” but they don’t have anything extra to back up that claim. So that’s what we do.

So we’re an external third-party. We don’t have any other relationship with the client. They will submit an application to us. And as I’ve mentioned before, that’s their plan for complying with the organic standards. They submit details about where they’re getting their organic fiber. They submit details about what chemicals are going to be used and if they’ve been pre-evaluated for GOTS to use.

They submit maps and layouts of where things are stored and how organic products are separated from non-organic product, maybe their record-keeping practices. And then again, all of the social criteria so they will have to provide policy other than that they meet the social criteria, which is again, the more so fair trade item.

So we review that entire application in detail. That’s when we might some little things that, a crack or sometimes, we’ll find some big things that are really big, red flags and would mean that they can’t be a client.

That’s the main review. And then after that, we go do the physical inspection. So we’ll go through their warehouse or their mills depending on what type of processing they are doing. We take a checklist, then we walk through the entire process.
Basically, what I do is have them walk me through every step that they take from the raw, organic product coming in to their finished product. And so we can really see what is being done every step.
And we might collect samples for testing. We might collect copy of the records and things like that as well.

And then after the inspection, we perform another review. We determine if they’re compliant. And if they are, then that’s when the certificate is issued.

So all in all, the certification process will typically take two months, maybe three. It really depends on how complete the application is to begin with. That’s the certification process in a nutshell.

I find that a lot of my work is at a desk reviewing inputs and working at maths and reviewing test reports and a lot of those tendered documentations. I really enjoy when I get to go out into the field and do the inspection. That’s kind of fun.

DEBRA: Yeah, I imagine it would be. I know I like to go to organic farms and visit and go to factories and see what they are doing. It can be a lot of fun to do that.
So we’re coming up on the break pretty soon, so I don’t want to ask you another one question. But I think that when people see that something has been certified, that they don’t really understand everything that has really gone into it.
It just is amazing to me how when somebody has to make a plan, it’s like – I know that if I were to make a plan of everything that I was going to do, say, to take a trip to go someplace and that I would have to list every single detail, that would be very difficult.
Just the action of making a plan and saying, “This is how we’re going to do everything” and then doing it exactly according to plan. That’s a pretty amazing thing right there. Just right there, that’s an amazing thing.
So we’re going to go to break and we’ll be right back. This is Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. My guest today is Karlin Warner. She’s the textile certification specialist for OneCert, an organic certification company in Lincoln, Nebraska. We’ll be right back.


DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. My guest today is Karlin Warner. She’s the textile certification specialist for OneCert, an organic certification company and she certifies textiles to the Global Organic Textile Standard.
Karlin, I wanted to ask you to explain about the difference between a GOTS certified fabric or a fabric that says that it’s organic. Is there a difference? And then what if a product says that it’s GOTS certified. What do all of those things mean? How does a consumer know what to look for in a textile?

KARLIN WARNER: Well, the best way to know if something is GOTS certified is to look for the logo. If you aren’t familiar with the GOTS logo, it’s kind of a green circle with a white colored cert kind of tape in the middle underneath. So it’s Global Organic Textile Standard around the outside.

DEBRA: And in the description of today’s show, I put the logo so that everybody can see it and recognize it.

KARLIN WARNER: Oh, perfect. Perfect! Well, you can take a look at it there. That’s the best way to identify a fabric or a finished product that’s GOTS certified.
And sometimes, you might find that there are some false claims out there. So if you’re worried that a product is labeled as GOTS certified, but it might not actually be, the best thing that you can do is you go to the GOTS website, which is and they actually have a public database of all of the certified operations online. So you can search for the company or the manufacturer identified along with that label.

DEBRA: So if somebody were to see a GOTS certification on a fabric, then that means that the fabric itself – here’s what I want to clear up. If you see USDA on a label, then what the USDA organic certification is for is they’re certifying the agricultural product, the agricultural material. They’re not actually certifying the product, right, in textiles?

KARLIN WARNER: In textiles, actually, I do not think that he USDA allows their logo to be used on textiles unless the entire processing of the textile product has been done according to their standards, which as you know, have been written for food. So it’s very difficult. It supposedly can be done, but it is very difficult.

DEBRA: Well, isn’t that why GOTS was invented?


DEBRA: So that there would be a standard specific for the manufacturer of textile products.

KARLIN WARNER: Right, because there’s a lot of differences between food and dying fabric. There are things that we will wear that we wouldn’t put in our mouth and probably vice versa, so it makes sense to have different standards.
So the raw fibers for that is used in the GOTS products could’ve come from USDA certified field or other equivalent organic standards. But that’s basically the extent of certification of textiles under the standards.

DEBRA: So I guess the point I’m trying to make is that somebody could say, “This is organic fabric” and then they might produce a certification that says that this cotton is certified organic as an agricultural product, but it doesn’t say anything about how the fabric was produced.

KARLIN WARNER: Right. It’s the ingredient basically.

DEBRA: Right. And so where GOTS is important is because it has as standard for the entire production of that fabric.

KARLIN WARNER: Yes, everything from getting to the finished product and even through importing and distribution. Those are all parts that are certified. So really, the only ones that don’t have to be certified are the retailers. And that’s only apparent doing any processing.

DEBRA: Right, this came up actually on another show where we’re talking about organic personal care products. The person I was interviewing was talking about the importance of certifying the retailers. In a food setting – and you can tell me if this applies or not in a textile setting, but in a food setting, you could do something in a store, you could take a natural food store, you could take an organic lettuce out of the bin and bring it over the deli section or their little restaurant and that they could say, “This is organic salad now,” but they aren’t certified to prepare that salad in an organic way.

KARLIN WARNER: Right, right. They could do something in the preparation step that would make it not organic if they’ve actually been certified.

We run into that a lot with t-shirt products, for example. We have a GOTS certified t-shirt, someone picks it and prints on it. And then they want to control it as GOTS certified, but technically, they can’t.

DEBRA: Right, that’s a very good example. That’s a very good example. And particularly with toxics, that’s a very good example because here, you have this GOTS certified organic t-shirt and then they put a toxic ink that is emitting toxic fumes. That’s not a GOTS certified product.
Are you there?

KARLIN WARNER: Yes, I am here.

DEBRA: Oh, okay. I thought maybe we might have dropped the line. I didn’t hear you.

Okay, so something like if it was a GOTS certified organic t-shirt unprinted and then they print it with a toxic ink that’s now out gassing toxic fumes, that is not a GOTS certified t-shirt.

KARLIN WARNER: Correct. Right, that would make it not GOTS certified.

DEBRA: Right. That’s a really good example.

And so then, when we get to the level of a product, you can also certify a product. I know on my website, I list NaturePedic, which is GOTS certified to make mattresses and the whole entire mattress is certified.
KARLIN WARNER: You can have GOTS certified mattresses. That’s something that’s been popping up a little more often lately. GOTS does allow certain other ingredients to be used other than the organic fiber, so that can allow, for instance, the frame and support and different parts of the mattress.

DEBRA: And so would you have other kinds of products that are being certified like clothing or something where they would have to use buttons or zippers or things.

KARLIN WARNER: Yeah, there are a lot of clothing items that use buttons and zippers, even if it has an embroidery thread and other fiber materials have to be kind of evaluated.

DEBRA: Well, we’ll talk more about this after the break. You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. My guest today is Karlin Warner. She’s the textile certification specialist at OneCert and she certifies textiles and textile products to the Global Organic Textile Standard. We’ll be right back.


DEBRA: You’re listening to Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. My guest today is Karlin Warner, textile certification specialist for OneCert. It’s an organic certification company in Lincoln, Nebraska.
Karlin, what are some of the things that might come up when you’re reviewing the plan? What are some of the things that you might see that need to be corrected?

KARLIN WARNER: Well, it can really vary depending on what the operation is involved in. One of the biggest things I would say is they have listed input, chemical inputs whether it’s dyes or other textile axillaries that are not GOTS approved.
The way that that is done is that the manufacturers of these textiles input actually submit information to certifiers like myself and we review them and they get put on a positive list for that company. So they’re essentially pre-approved or prescreened.

DEBRA: So these are chemical ingredients I should say where there is a positive approved list, so that as a certifier, all you need to do is go down the list and say, “Oh, this is already approved, so therefore it’s approved in the product.”


I think that that’s a really important point to make for consumers because I’m always looking at, “Well, how do professionals like you, how are you evaluating products because I’m having to evaluate products as a consumer advocate, but then the consumer down the line, every single consumer is evaluating products.”

And so this whole idea of the preapproved positive list is just as important if not more important than the preapproved negative list that’s approved to be negative – how would you say that? Approve a list of positive things? It’s the prohibited list. So there’s the prohibited list and then there’s the positive, okay list.

I think that I know for myself whether I write that list down or not, that I have that list in my mind of chemicals I’m absolutely not going to use and things that I know are okay. I think that if every consumer would think in those terms, I think it would be easier to organize our thoughts about it.

KARLIN WARNER: Yeah, I do think it’s a helpful way to think about it. And definitely, I appreciate having the positive list and the not-allowed list as a certifier because it makes things a lot more black and white. We know that it’s already been evaluated. It either is or isn’t allowed.

DEBRA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Very good. Okay, so sometimes you see things as you’re evaluating the plan, you see something that isn’t on the approved list, but isn’t on the restricted list either?

KARLIN WARNER: Yeah. So sometimes we’ll come across some inputs that the company has been using for a really long time and they like and they’ve been told that it’s eco-friendly or they’ve been told that it’s fine or it’s compliant, sometimes they’ve even has been told that it meets the GOTS criteria, that’s not sufficient. We need to know that it has been evaluated in detail by a certifier in order for it to be used.

DEBRA: Oh, so your positive, approved list, each of those things have been evaluated by a certifier and that’s why it’s on the positive approved list. So there could be something that meets the qualifications for the positive approved list, it just hasn’t been certified.

KARLIN WARNER: Right. And so in that case, then I always encourage our clients to talk to their suppliers, have their chemical suppliers submit it for approval to a certification body.

It’s a fairly simple process. We just have to take a look at the formulae and we need to see all of the ingredients and [inaudible 00:42:52] with some important pieces of data about the toxicity and biodegradability and stuff like that.
But yeah, I would say that that is the biggest roadblock that we come to with people that are doing processing, like the dying and printing.

DEBRA: Yeah, yeah. Well, tell us what are the different aspects of the process of making a textile that you’re looking at? You start with the raw material and you end up with a piece of fabric, but what are the different steps that it goes through where you might be encountering toxic chemicals?

KARLIN WARNER: Sure! Okay, so the first step is usually for cotton is spinning. It is mechanical and there’s usually no input at that stage.

But if you’re working with organic wool, the first stage is scouring. So right away, the first next processing step, you will encounter input. So right there, there’s usually a lot of detergent-type of chemicals that are used and so that’s something that we have to look at.

Typically, the next stage would be spinning the wool, cotton, silk or whatever fiber we’re working with. Sometimes, a wax or some similar lubricant type of thing might be used in the spinning process. The same thing for knitting and weaving. Sometimes, there are some [inaudible 00:44:29] that are used.

And for weaving, sometimes the yarns are [inaudible 00:44:33] so they’re actually coated in something to make them stronger during the weaving process. That’s something we have to look at.

And then we start to get into more of the wet processing stage. Just like I mentioned, the dying and the printing and the finishes that is a wet ingredient. There’s obviously a lot of chemicals.
And one other one that I would…

DEBRA: And… sorry, go ahead, yes.

KARLIN WARNER: It’s important for the organic consultants because a lot of times, if you do the sizing for weaving, then a lot of times, they use organisms to remove the sizing materials. So we have to make sure that they’re using GMO-free organism for that.

DEBRA: Hmmm… so if the organisms are not GMO-free (like they probably would be for anything that isn’t certified by you), then those GMO’s affect the end user in a way? Are they still there on the clothing?

KARLIN WARNER: I don’t know if I can answer that it’s 100% preserved, but it’s usually enzymes that are used. It’s because they can break down the starches that are used for sizing. I’m not sure if it leaves any residue, there’s always a possibility. But I think in the main, we just doesn’t like to use GMO at any stage. That’s something that is definitely prohibited. It’s more of the classic, old template.

DEBRA: Yes, yes. I mean, this is like GMO-free textiles and I think that that’s a good thing. I just think that we shouldn’t be using GMO’s at all for anything. They’re unnatural.

KARLIN WARNER: Yes, exactly.

DEBRA: Yeah, yeah. There’s no need really to use them. So once something goes through this whole process, then you issue the certification.What about marketing of this? Is there anything besides labels or anything that GOTS is doing to help consumers understand it better or look for the label?
KARLIN WARNER: I think it’s an ongoing process and they’ve been trying to do a little bit more consumer awareness. But it’s something that I hope grows a lot more in the next coming year.
I know in the Europe the GOTS label is actually fairly recognizable. But here in the U.S., it’s kind of rare to see. It hasn’t really caught on enough to get a whole lot of consumer awareness.
But aside from using the logo and encouraging certifiers use the logo. There are some other campaigns out there about using organic cotton. I don’t know if you’ve seen that Cottoned On campaign. I think it was [inaudible 00:47:50]. It’s kind of related to the GOTS standard-based [inaudible 00:47:56].

DEBRA: Could you say that again because you kind of broke up and I didn’t get it. What is the other standard?

KARLIN WARNER: Oh, it’s not a standard. It’s like a campaign. It’s like a marketing campaign for organic cotton. They just call it Cottoned On.

DEBRA: Oh, I haven’t seen that.

KARLIN WARNER: So they say, “Have you cottoned on?” It’s kind of an interesting website. I encourage you to check it out.

DEBRA: And it’s just

KARLIN WARNER: I believe so.

DEBRA: Oh, is that it?

KARLIN WARNER: I looked at it yesterday,but I can’t remember.

DEBRA: Okay. Okay, good. Yeah. Alright! Well, we’ve reached the end of the show. Is there any final words that you’d like to say about anything we haven’t covered?

KARLIN WARNER: I don’t think so. I think we’ve pretty much covered it all. I don’t really have anything to add at this point unless there’s something that you have to ask?

DEBRA: Well, no. We actually have less than a minute left anyway. But thank you so much for being here. I think that we’ve learned a lot today about what the certification process is about.

That’s Karlin Warner. She’s with OneCert. Their website is This is Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd and you can go to and find out more about the different shows that are on. You can listen to those shows, the previous shows. You can find out who’s going to be on tomorrow. You can also go across the top. There’s a menu that shows different parts of my website. One of them, you just click on Shop and you’ll see that as you go through it that there are different websites that sells GOTS certified textile products of various types and all kinds of toxic-free products. I have more than 500 websites listed there where you can buy toxic-free products and live without exposure to toxic chemicals that we’re talking about every day on the show.

So please join me again tomorrow. Listen to the shows whenever you’d like 24 hours a day. This is Toxic Free Talk Radio. I’m Debra Lynn Dadd. Good bye.


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